God's image?

[Mona:] Hello dear Mikael. I'm glad you're here and I am looking forward to our conversation. And as always – a surprise topic. Over the last few days, a topic has come to me very emphatically, namely Godlikeness: that we humans are created in the image of God and, yes, what that can mean; whether we have even grasped this meaning correctly yet. Because at the moment, the way I see our humanity, the way we live collectively, I don't think that's the case yet. And I have the impression that we are all on our way somewhere. Perhaps we can always explore this a little together.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Hello dear Mona. Yes, a great topic. I am happy. I'm totally surprised by the topic, and I love this. I was just working on a video today that I made a while ago, but I've been working on it a bit. It was about Jesus and about Easter and about Divinity, and it's so close to me. I love this topic. So, I'm looking forward to it.

Should I start, or do you want to start?

[Mona:] No, you're welcome to start with whatever strikes you.

Living two hundred percent

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, as I said, I was just dealing with one of my videos this afternoon, and Jesus emphasized again and again that he is the Son of God. In other words: just like God – his son. And he also always said: he is the Son of Man. Basically, as I understand it, he says: "Hey, I'm like you. I am man, and I am God."

And our challenge in this life is to discover the Divine within us. And it's not so much about behaving in a certain way, behaving in a Divine way so that you don't mess up so much in the world, but it's about a completely different kind of being, which actually has nothing to do with being human and yet happens at the same time.

Our challenge in this life is to discover the Divine within us. And it's not so much about behaving in a certain way, but it's about a completely different kind of being, which actually has nothing to do with being human and yet happens at the same time.

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I sometimes have the feeling that we humans are living on the back burner – this earthly life. We don't even know how to live properly. We actually only live in our minds. We actually only live in our thoughts. We have no idea what it means to be here in the moment and really experience what is here now. We only think about it, and we have our judgments and our ideas and desires. That means, we live this earthly life on the back burner, maybe fifty percent; fifty percent maybe.

But someone like Jesus talks about living this earthly life one hundred percent, all here, and at the same time discovering the Divine within ourselves, that which is also there but of which we have no idea, and living that at the same time also one hundred percent. There is no contradiction. Jesus never talked about anything coming after the death of the body and then you just live somewhere else, but he was talking about what you have chosen as a topic: What did you say? What was the topic? How did you express it?

[Mona:] Man in the Godlikeness.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, Godlikeness. We are the image of God, but we have no idea about it. We don't have to become it, but we have to perceive the part of us that has to do with it in the first place and get to know it. And then we have two hundred percent of life. And Jesus spoke about this the whole time. He said all the time: Hey, you are God too. You are also God's son. You are also God's daughter. And he showed us how to get there, but of course we didn't understand him.

Someone like Jesus talks about living this earthly life one hundred percent, all here, and at the same time discovering the Divine within ourselves, and living that also one hundred percent.

And then we have two hundred percent of life.

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[Mona:] Nice how you start. I would even say that there is much more potential in this. We are alive, only fifty percent. Just think about what Jesus said: "Let the dead bury the dead." Often, we are not fully alive, usually not, because we focus on the outside and consider these outer layers to be us, and God's image... where is God?

In the depths, in the very core, and that, as I see it, has nothing to do with any characteristics... We have to be like this, we have to be like that, and then we set ourselves goals from the outside again. But when we get in touch with our innermost being, the most beautiful of all qualities emerge, but when they emerge, then we want to live them. In other words, we have not yet reached our true inner treasure, and this is where real vitality actually comes from.

And for me, living this earthly life is... that's actually what it's all about. Earthly life is like a machine at the moment. It is not sufficiently connected to the essence, to where the real power and also the joy and happiness come from. And because this is not the case, we feel that something is missing, and then we search desperately, and destroy a great deal, and ultimately destroy ourselves and do not find the real thing.

This wrong life is the help

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Well, it is like this... It's easy to say "we're living this life wrong". But I don't think that view is quite right. It's more like this life is the vehicle for us to learn. We stumble into this life, and we have forgotten our Divinity. And this life that we live as best we can, as best we know how, somehow, as our fathers and mothers and their fathers and mothers have exemplified... That's when we realize: "That can't be it."

We realize that we are constantly reaching our own limits. We realize that nothing works, everyone always wants only the best, but it's actually always... Well, it's not getting any better, maybe it's getting worse, I don't know. But it's not that there's anything wrong with it. If we get lost in this outer life, if we take it for reality, then exactly that what we experience happens. And that is the help.

Once you start to become a little aware, you realize that you actually only have problems everywhere. That simply can't be it. There must be something else. Life forces us, lovingly so to speak, like a loving mother, to discover this true core of ourselves by living this life; by reaching its limits; by encountering the pain and then slowly discovering: there is something else!

Life forces us, lovingly so to speak, like a loving mother, to discover this true core of ourselves by living this life; by reaching its limits; by encountering the pain and then slowly discovering: there is something else!

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[Mona:] Yes, that's how I see it too, and it's really far from me to somehow say that we are living wrong. It's more about saying: what haven't we discovered yet? Why are we suffering so much? Why do we find it so difficult? And life on the outside does indeed give us clues. For example, when we look for love on the outside, it is actually a clue to our innermost being.

We wouldn't be able to look for it if we didn't have something within us that can feel love and that is already love. And it is the same with other things, with riches that we accumulate and perhaps also beauty that we try to create. There is already a great abundance and intensity within us, and we do not discover this, and we spend a lot of our energy on the outside. But the outside actually always gives us a clue to our inner self.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, it pushes us very slowly in this direction, through pain.

[Mona:] Yes. Through pain and also through a feeling of lack, through longing too. So, the way I perceive it, everything is actually here, but it is like a paradox. As if we are going in exactly the opposite direction. And the way to really find ourselves and to admit: there is God in us, there is the Divine in us... we almost don't dare to do that.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, we don't dare. I think two things play a role here. One is... We don't trust ourselves because we're so used to it: "I have to survive out there in the world; I have to do; I have to have my life under control. I can't just turn inwards and see what happens." We have a kind of built-in resistance to this. We are deeply convinced: this cannot go well. It simply can't go well. But there's a second thing.

We don't want it either, because... On the one hand, we long to be carried and sheltered, but if I am carried and sheltered, then that means: it's not me who is doing this, it's something else. I just lean back, I let myself be carried. And that – if you are completely honest – goes against what the 'I' wants. The 'I' wants to do, the 'I' has certain ideas about how things should look, the 'I' has goals, and that's where it wants to go.

On the one hand, we long to be carried and sheltered, but if I am carried and sheltered, then that means: it's not me who is doing this, it's something else. I just lean back, I let myself be carried.

And that – if you are completely honest – goes against what the 'I' wants.

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And to just pause, to just say what Jesus always said: Not my will be done, your will be done... To just go with the flow, without your own way, that the head can't imagine, that the ego can't imagine, that is unimaginable. That may sound quite good when you read it in a book or think about it, but when you do it yourself, then there is only resistance within you. We are so familiar with effort, with struggle. We are familiar with that. But we are not at all familiar with peace and tranquillity and being here.

The 'I' wants to do, has certain ideas, has goals.

And to just pause, to just say what Jesus always said: Not my will be done, your will be done... To just go with the flow, without your own way, that is unimaginable.

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No one wants peace

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I find that totally interesting. Just look at how people spend their time. They work the whole day, and then they come home and are exhausted. What do people entertain themselves with? What attracts people? Look at the movies people watch, the books they read, what they do in their free time. It's all about fighting, violence, problems, drama, war, competition, me against you: we find that simply entertaining. We find it interesting.

Fighting, violence, problems, drama, war, competition, me against you: we find that entertaining. On TV, there may be a moment of peace, but then it gets boring. Then there has to be friction again, problems, violence. We find that interesting.

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The series on TV and on the internet, there may be a moment of peace, but then it gets boring for people. Then there has to be action again, then there has to be friction again, problems, violence. We find that interesting, we find that good. No one finds peace, being carried and just being here interesting. Such books wouldn't sell, such movies wouldn't sell either, and that's because in reality, nobody wants it. And that is the ego.

No one finds peace, being carried and just being here interesting. Such books wouldn't sell, such movies wouldn't sell either, and that's because in reality, nobody wants it. And that is the ego.

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That is what controls us. That is what constitutes the 'I'. And when you really realize: "there is no other way, I have to achieve this peace", then you first have to endure for a long time – to your own astonishment – your own resistance to it, your own fear of it, your own discomfort with it, and make friends with it as if there were, and there is, a very large part in you that in reality does not want it at all.

When you realize: "there is no other way, I have to achieve this peace", then you first have to endure – to your own astonishment – your own resistance to it, your own fear of it, your own discomfort with it, and make friends with it as if there were a part that does not want it at all.

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[Mona:] Yes, I would say that these are layers that we are not really; that we have formed collectively and through our parents... that are here and that actually resonate with drama and violence and things like that. And if you shut them down, it is like a withdrawal for these layers. They start to rage. They really don't want that.

And that's why we hardly have the opportunity to discover who we really are and what we really want, because we are deceived by these layers and think we are these layers. And that's why, yes, the only way to do it – for me it was silence, for you it's meditation – is to somehow endure it, to find our way through it. And on this path, a lot of old crap, traumas and all sorts of things naturally emerge. And that is no fun.

That's why it's important to talk about it, so that people know that even if it feels really rough at the moment... actually, the way leads through this, the way to my happiness, and also to my peace. We all want peace in the world. It cannot be achieved until we have reached this point within ourselves. It goes through here. The Godlikeness is here, it is inherent in us. It's about finding it and having the courage to set out on this path.

[Dhyan Mikael:] I think it's a great topic, this Godlikeness.

If I am God – and I am – then I have nothing to do with the world. The world was created by me. It is my product. I am not the child of the world. I have nothing to do with the world. And that is the great difficulty on the path: discovering this part of me. From birth, I have known nothing other than the world. I only know people who know nothing else. For generations I haven't known anyone who knows anything else. And then, someone like Jesus or a Guru or two crazy people like us comes along and says: there is something else.

And to then let go of everything that is familiar... It is still there, but to no longer take it mentally important, but to go in search of something which firstly has nothing to do with it at all and secondly is something which I don't know at all, that simply seems crazy. That seems completely absurd. Who does something like that? And yet, people do it. And that's the interesting thing. So, you were talking about how there are so many layers that prevent us from doing it. I would put it differently. I go even further.

I say: the entire essence of man is nothing but the worldly, and has been since time immemorial. This is what the Bible is about – we have already talked about this before – and this is what the story of paradise is about. Since time immemorial man has known nothing other than this identification with worldly life, with the 'I', with the ego, with doing, and we have no way of getting out of it by ourselves. We can't peel off the layers, it's not possible. Someone has to help us.

In your case, it was fate, although I'm still not even sure if that's true. I believe that even a soul like yours, even you were touched by a Jesus. Maybe not Jesus of Nazareth, maybe in your last life it was some Guru in Australia or somewhere else. And in this life, you bring that with you, and now, all you need is a touch on the shoulder... Your husband has died. You have fallen into nothingness in your worldly life. And then the memory comes. Then it is here. But we can't do it. It is given to us from outside, and that is what Jesus calls Grace.

In this life, it was your personal circumstances with the death of your partner. In my life, in this life, it was through meeting my Master and my Guru. But it is given to us from the outside. And in everyone's life, there is this moment when it is offered to you from the outside. Whether we then take it is another question. But it is given to us. And then you can look in that direction, very carefully, and then you realize: "Ah".... And then you taste it for the first time, this... You don't even know what you're dealing with.

You don't even know that it's God. You don't even know that it's the beauty of your own soul that you're feeling. You think it's a stroke of fate or a Guru, another body, another being. But in reality, it is the first taste of the Kingdom of Heaven; of something we carry within ourselves. But it comes from outside – seemingly; seemingly from outside. Later, of course, you know that this is not true either, but I like to talk practically.

And then, someone like Jesus or a Guru comes along and says: there is something else. And to then let go of everything that is familiar, to no longer take it important, but to go in search of something which I don't know at all, that simply seems crazy.

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[Mona:] Yes, I can also say in hindsight that I had several of these situations, not as serious as the moment my husband died, but there were certain impulses beforehand and it also intensified. So, it's almost as if the soul wanted to be born at that time. As if it really wanted to make itself visible. And that's why it's important to talk about it, because I believe that all people somewhere feel this way, or very many, or at least those who ever look at something like what we're discussing now.

And you said: who cares, apart from crazy people like that? Yes, because it's so absurd. And that was very, very difficult for me along the way, for example, because how was I supposed to gain confidence in something so absurd? I no longer wanted the other, old thing. I had no other option, but to go this way. But if I had heard from others: "have faith in this path" and "we have also experienced this"... I have the impression that it's a time right now where this is happening more and more.

It seems to me as if the Divine really wants to break out now and to a greater extent than was previously the case. Now it is also possible to draw attention to this on a larger scale through the internet and such conversations. And the escalation that is taking place everywhere at the moment also indicates to me that the Divine light is actually behind it and is pushing the darkness upwards. So, my feeling is that there is a lot going on at the moment.

Blessed times – it has never been easier

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, we are actually living in very, very blessed times. It has never been easier than now to awaken and to turn to the Divine side and to discover that stillness and to turn inward, in this world that is only outwardly focused. It's easier now than ever, for those who want it. It's never been easier than now.

We are actually living in very, very blessed times. It has never been easier than now to awaken and to turn to the Divine side and to discover that stillness and to turn inward, in this world that is only outwardly focused.

It's easier now than ever, for those who want it.

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We live in such blessed times that ordinary people like you, like me, who live in society, who have their normal lives, can turn inwards; that they can discover their soul; that they can meditate without being harassed for it; without being burned or crucified for it; without having to give up their lives, renounce worldly life and moving to some cave in the Himalayas. Never before was this possible. It has never been easier.

And the help has different faces. One face of help is that there are now more Gurus in the world than ever before working on it. Most of them are invisible to people. You can tell by the fact that the world is becoming more and more difficult – this is also a help. This practical, worldly life is a help. It is not here so that we can enjoy it – it is here to help us discover what is really sustainable.

We live in such blessed times that ordinary people, who have their normal lives, can turn inwards; can discover their soul; can meditate without being harassed for it; without having to renounce worldly life. Never before was this possible. It has never been easier.

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And it just becomes more and more difficult and more and more interesting, and it reminds people even more vehemently that everything that can be achieved in this worldly life is over in the blink of an eye. None of this remains, nothing. But people ignore it, and only at the last moment, only when the body begins to dissolve do they realize: "Ah, that's why I was here!" Then it's too late.

This practical, worldly life is here to help us discover what is really sustainable. Everything that can be achieved in this worldly life is over in the blink of an eye. None of this remains, nothing. But people ignore it, and only at the last moment, only when the body begins to dissolve do they realize: "Ah, that's why I was here!"

Then it's too late.

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[Mona:] And that is why it is so important to be aware of this and to ask yourself the question: what does "being in the Godlikeness" actually mean? It is not what we are living at the moment, as you said, how we usually spend our lives. It can't be that at all. If you look at the other side and see the beauty, the glory of creation... And above all, on this path that you then take, you become more and more sensitive and see it all the more.

But even if this is not yet the case at the beginning, you can at least see the beauty of nature and the beauty in things and realize that the life we often lead is very far away from this and that this naturally cannot satisfy us. We suffer because we are separated from the real thing without realizing it. And it is essential that we find our way there.

Finding out how the Saint became holy

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. The question is, how do you get there? Traditionally, people did it like this: since they didn't know how to get there, they tried to behave like someone who knew. They imitated some Saint or Jesus. They tried to behave well; to be a good person. They tried not to do the bad things that everyone else does. But it doesn't work. It doesn't work to imitate someone. You have to find out what the Saint did to get to where he is now. You have to know: what did such a Jesus do so that he became like this; so that he became so holy, so whole and so God-like?

The question is, how do you get there? Traditionally, people did it like this: since they didn't know how to get there, they imitated some Saint or Jesus. They tried to behave well; to be a good person. But it doesn't work.

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And he told us again and again. He said it again and again. Every Guru says it again and again, but we don't want to hear it. Jesus said: "Pray". And he also said exactly how to pray. When Jesus said "pray", he meant "meditate", but the word didn't exist in that part of the world at that time. He described how to pray. He said: "Your will be done". That was his prayer. That was his message: one sentence. That is surrender. Not me. No wish, no preference, no goal. "Your will, life: you." That is pure surrender. That is meditation. This is how you meditate – true meditation.

It doesn't work to imitate someone. You have to find out what the Saint did to get to where he is now. You have to know: what did such a Jesus do so that he became like this; so that he became so holy, so whole and so God-like? And he told us again and again. Every Guru says it again and again, but we don't want to hear it.

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Samarpan Meditation... Samarpan means surrender. When you meditate, you don't do anything. You don't imagine anything, you don't have a goal, you don't want anything. You let it all go. And you can only do that if you let go of everything that is important to you. You can only do that if you let go of everything you want to achieve. And that's what Jesus told us two thousand years ago. He said: "This is what I do. This is how I became the Son of God. You can do that too." And that's exactly the one thing we don't want: this "Thy will be done. I have no will." That is unimaginable for us.

That's what Jesus told us two thousand years ago. He said: "This is what I do. This is how I became the Son of God. You can do that too." And that's exactly the one thing we don't want: this "Thy will be done. I have no will." That is unimaginable for us.

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Today I read a quote from J. Krishnamurti who said the same thing, only in his unique way. He said: "I have no problem simply because I don't want anything; because I'm not against anything; because I don't want anything different; because I say yes to everything. That's why I have no problem." And his last sentence in the quote was: "I wonder if you understand that." Because that's something the ego can't grasp. Nobody wants that. The whole secret of Godlikeness is to say to God: "Thy will be done."

J. Krishnamurti said in his unique way: "I have no problem because I don't want anything; because I'm not against anything; because I don't want anything different; because I say yes to everything." And: "I wonder if you understand that."

Because that's something the ego can't grasp. Nobody wants that.

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Then I am God – if I can do that; then the ego melts away. That is something you can do in a moment and then have to practise again and again, every moment anew. And life tests you again and again, every moment anew. And if you can do this, like Jesus, then you are the Son of God. Then you are equal to God. So, the 'how' is not a problem at all. But practising it and becoming really good at it and deciding to do it again and again: that is the challenge.

The whole secret of Godlikeness is to say to God: "Thy will be done."

Then I am God – if I can do that; then the ego melts away. And if you can do this, like Jesus, then you are the Son of God. Then you are equal to God.

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[Mona:] Yes, and above all, doing your will and gradually reducing your own external desires. It's not possible to suddenly drop all desires and say "Thy will be done", I think that's impossible for a person. That would be too much for us. It's a very gradual path where we meditate.

99% is impossible, 100% is easy

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[Dhyan Mikael:] No, I have to disagree. No, that's not possible at all. On the contrary. I would say exactly the opposite. I love it when we get to a point like that. Successively reducing desires doesn't work at all, because when I successively reduce desires, new desires immediately arise. The one who discards a wish is the one who immediately comes up with the next wish. "I am discarding this now so that I can get to paradise." That's not how it works. I would put it differently.

I think we mean the same thing, but you express it differently to me, and I always try to take things to the extreme so that what we express together is understandable. I would put it like this: You can let go of everything, for moments. So, I can only either let go of everything, or nothing. "Gradually" doesn't work for me. I can't imagine anyone being able to do that. For example, now. Someone may be listening here. Someone hears a quote from Jesus like this and knows: "That's it!" And then he or she sits there with their eyes closed and lets go of everything for that moment.

Five minutes later, everything is back. All the wishes are back. And then, the moment you remember it again or are reminded of it again, then again: "Ah yes, that's it! I know it." And then again: Thy will be done. And that includes everything, everything. This is complete letting go, until they come back, the wishes, all together. My spiritual Master Soham once put it like this: "Ninety percent is difficult, impossible. Ninety-nine percent is difficult, impossible. One hundred percent is easy." Letting go of everything is possible.

Letting go of half of it today to get used to it, and a bit more tomorrow, and then another bit.... that can't work, it's a mental thing. And then you let go of everything and, as I said, later discover that you didn't let go. It's all still there. And then you let go again. And so it goes on and on. That's the way I experience it.

My spiritual Master Soham once put it like this: "Ninety-nine percent is difficult, impossible. One hundred percent is easy."

Letting go of everything is possible. Letting go of half of it today to get used to it, and a bit more tomorrow, and then another bit.... that can't work.

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[Mona:] Well, it was different for me. It wasn't even a case of wanting to let go, but perhaps because I had this other comparison to what was true, it gradually lost its importance; the importance it had for me. And then, it was actually as if more and more layers of desires... For me, it was actually a gradual process in which things that were important to me, or concepts or beliefs, suddenly lost their power.

[Dhyan Mikael:] That is indeed the case. That's how I experience it too. When I observe what happens to me and in my life – how it gradually changes over time – then it's exactly as you say. There are some things that I remember at some point and then I realize that they have not been important for ages. I don't even think about them anymore. Others come up from time to time...

[Mona:] Exactly, they come knocking...

[Dhyan Mikael:] ...but when it comes to: what can I do to promote this? This is my personal experience: I can either throw everything into the fire, or nothing at all. How it then changes, in the long term, gradually, that is growth; it is exactly as you say. I experience it exactly as you say.

[Mona:] Possibly because I had this very decisive experience, it was like this radical letting go. It was the radical confrontation with something totally different. And in terms of fate, everything that previously had meaning had actually been knocked out of my hands, and I had no other choice. Perhaps every path is different, but in fact: the path is also a process somewhere.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes.

[Mona:] For me, it was also about not scaring people by saying: you have to let go of everything straight away, because the ego will go into a boycott. That wouldn't have worked for me either.

[Dhyan Mikael:] No, it's exactly as you say. You experience... In reality, you can't let go at all. You experience moments where it just happens. For you, it happened in the same way that it happened in your life. For me, it simply happened because I was sitting at my Master's feet. I had no drama at all in my outer life; it just happened. I experienced it several times. And then you have to let go.

You're forced to do it or it's given to you, for moments, and then you realize: "Ah, wow. That's life!" You don't know how it happened, you can't do it, but then you experience it once. And then the next time you have the opportunity to let it happen and to acknowledge: "I'm powerless; I'm letting life wash everything away now", then you are ever more ready for it, ever more ready.

And then you have to let go. You're forced to do it or it's given to you, for moments, and then you realize: "That's life!"

And then the next time you have the opportunity to acknowledge: "I'm powerless", then you are ever more ready for it, ever more ready.

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[Mona:] Exactly. Exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] You don't need to be afraid of that. You can't do it anyway. And I remembered something interesting before we started talking. I recently read something about my Guru, Swamiji. This is the Indian Guru from the Himalayas who brings the Samarpan Meditation which I talk about all the time. He said: it is predestined for the soul in this life when that happens and through whom, or, in your case, how. For example, he says about the relationship that I have with him: when the soul meets the Guru and where you experience something like this, this is predetermined.

In other words, all you need is a little reminder. When we talk about such things, we don't really need to go to any great lengths to explain anything or present anything logically, plausibly or convincingly. In my life it was always like this: when I was ready, one word from anyone was enough and I knew that it was for me. I didn't have to be convinced. Just hearing about it... that's when I knew: yes, that's it.

[Mona:] That is indeed the case, and I experience it that way too. And I would even say... In my case I had the impression afterwards that it was my husband's job to awaken this in me. He also died in a radiation: he had fulfilled his mission. At that time, I couldn't yet interpret that. You only understand things much later. But that was this decisive touch for me, and for me it was also... Basically, this memory is like a Guru. I just have to remember it and then I know the quality that it is about.

And at the same time, along the way, I always feel that it is Divine Grace that supports us, that nudges us, that also helps us when we have gone in the wrong direction again, which is not really wrong, but which then gives us the clues, which also gives us the opportunity by suddenly encountering some word. I feel the same way as you do. I see a word and realize: this is exactly what is meant for me, this is what will lead me further. Or a person or something. And it happens so magically. There's a completely different force at work, and it's wonderful.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, that's what happened to Jesus' first two disciples, the fishermen. They were just about to start working when Jesus came along and greeted them and said: come with me. And for them... I mean, they weren't looking for a Guru, but he said that and it was clear to them: we're going with him. One moment they didn't know anything about it, and the next moment it was the most normal thing in the world for them to drop everything and follow this stranger. And that's how it was for me too.

I was sitting in Satsang with Soham for the first time, I had never experienced anything like this before. I had no idea what it was all about. It was my first Satsang. I sat there, he came in and I knew: I'm staying here. Just like that. I knew that, and then I stayed. I'm still there today. From that day on, I was with him, and also practically. After all, I worked for him. And that's how Swamiji came into my life. Soham had told me at some point that he had heard something about this Guru in India. And I heard the first sentence of what he said and I knew: this is my Guru.

I've always been with him. I was just waiting for him to come back to me now, and my whole life suddenly made sense in a single moment. He didn't convince me, nothing. One word was enough, and the memory was suddenly there – something I didn't know anything about before. That's the magic of this life. The life we live is magical. It really is magical, and if there's one thing I want to do, it is to give people a sense that the magic that they also know about, that you also know about if you're watching right now – not you, Mona, but whoever out there –: this feeling is true.

Life is a magical fairy tale

Link to topic in video at 40m47s

There are these old fairy tales, and in these old fairy tales the same thing always happens. The protagonist stumbles unsuspectingly through life, from one hair-raising adventure to the next, dangers everywhere, everything dark and evil. The hero of the story has no idea and no special abilities, rather a childlike quality of cluelessness and trust. Everywhere is just bad wolves and evil demons and who knows what, witches and wizards, and the hero of the story is just childishly clueless.

And everything magically falls into place, and in the end, she marries the king's son, or he gets the princess as his wife. And all these ancient stories, these ancient myths, describe our path in life, the spiritual path of man: we have no idea; we don't know at all where we are going; we don't even know where we are going. We know nothing of the royal castle. We don't know anything about the princess or the prince who is waiting for us.

These ancient myths describe the spiritual path of man: we have no idea; we don't even know where we are going. We know nothing of the royal castle and we are led in the strangest of ways and arrive at the end. And none of this we deserve, and yet it happens.

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All we experience are difficulties and evil dragons, wicked witches and misfortune, and we are led in the strangest of ways and arrive at the end. And none of this we deserve, and yet it happens. And so is my life. And so is your life. That is the true nature of life. That's why these stories exist. And I used to always think... I was always touched by these fairy tales and I thought: too bad life isn't like that. But the older I got, the more I realized: life is like that!

The more I experienced difficulties and hair-raising situations and all sorts of impossible things in my life, the more I realized: my life is like these stories. And that's why these stories exist. They are a description of how life works, and everyone knows that, somewhere, and I want to encourage everyone to believe what they actually know. And then you can trust a little more, and then you can let go a little more.

I was always touched by these fairy tales and I thought: too bad life isn't like that. But the older I got, the more I realized: life is like that!

And everyone knows that, somewhere, and I want to encourage everyone to believe what they actually know.

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[Mona:] Yes. And what I also find so magical and beautiful is that even in my worldly life, and I see it in many other people too: where we didn't yet have this spiritual feeling, that it was already subtly at work, and that many things that I did in the worldly sphere, including skills and competencies that I developed, only really make sense now in a spiritual context, and that they didn't fulfil me before because it wasn't there yet.

But I have acquired skills back then that are just right today, and I see that in many people too. So, it really is a common thread that runs through life, and there is a sense of purpose that we usually only recognize at a certain point.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, and I would like to say something else: the way you are is exactly right for this crazy path. Almost everyone thinks there is something wrong with them and that I need to be much smarter in order to follow this path, and I need to be holier or wiser or more steadfast or purer. None of that is true. We have to be exactly like that.

If we were wiser or more steadfast or anything else, then we would be successful somewhere in the world and wouldn't care about God and about the soul and about paradise. Then we would be one of the many people who don't want to know about any of this and will therefore never know anything in this life. But we are just so messed-up, just so wrong and so crooked that we have the opportunity to want that. And that's such a Grace, that's such a gift.

Almost everyone thinks there is something wrong with them and that I need to be much smarter in order to follow this path, and I need to be holier or wiser or more steadfast or purer. None of that is true. We have to be exactly like that.

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That's the real gift in this life. I mean, I'm not stupid, but I've never been interested in career. I often thought that maybe I'm too lazy, I'm just not trying hard enough, but deep down there was something inside me that didn't want that at all. There was something deep inside me that wanted to go somewhere else. I just didn't know about it. And so many people that I deal with or who write to me all feel wrong in one way or another.

If we were wiser or more steadfast or anything else, then we would be successful somewhere in the world and wouldn't care about God and about the soul and about paradise. But we are just so messed-up, just so wrong and so crooked that we have the opportunity to want that. And that's such a Grace, that's such a gift.

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Everyone has their own convictions why they are completely wrong. But you have to be exactly like this to be able to go down this path. Just as wrong.

[Mona:] It was the same for me. I once even had the opportunity to have a career in my profession and felt at that point: I don't want that, and I let it go. But as far as being wrong is concerned, I think it's important that we don't believe that what makes us believe that we are wrong. That we, as you say: we are exactly right... that we also start to see that there really are treasures within us.

We often only judge ourselves by external standards or only see something that we might not be doing perfectly. Perfection, the divine perfection that is inherent in us, is completely different. It is not like our worldly standards, but rather different standards. And it's about finding this inner essence, which is always right.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, but the interesting thing is... The world is so perfect that we can't even imagine it. We asked at the beginning: what is the secret of Godlikeness? Thy will be done. I give up. And you say that this being wrong, that is actually not right at all and that we can recognize this fact, but that being wrong is precisely the gift. This pain of being wrong; this conviction: I'm wrong, I can't do it, I'll never manage it, that's what drives you towards this "I can't do it". If I were just a little bit smarter, I could talk myself out of being wrong.

If I were just a little bit wiser, I could talk myself out of it and then I could go back into the world. Then I would be restored. But if you are supposed to wake up in this life and go to Heaven, then life will not allow that. It will make you so wrong that there will be no way out. In one way or another, life forces you to say and acknowledge: "I can't do it. I'm not enough. I can't do it." You are forced to give up, and that is this being wrong. Some people experience it not as being wrong, but as hopelessness or whatever it is.

In one way or another, life forces you to acknowledge: "I can't do it. I'm not enough." And that is Life that brings you, lovingly, to the one thing that Jesus always advised us to do and which we fight tooth and nail against: this "Okay, Life, you do it."

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And that is Life that brings you, lovingly, to the one thing that Jesus always advised us to do and which we fight tooth and nail against: this "Okay, Life, you do it." We are forced to do it very, very gradually, so to speak. And that's why there is nothing wrong with being wrong – when I can finally say 'yes' to it. There are always people who say: "yes, but you're not wrong, and you can recognize that."

But if you go the other way around, and that's how I feel... The better I get to know myself, the more wrong I am – I see it more and more – and the more I can go there; the more I can realize: I can't do all that. I have no say here at all. Everything I thought I was good at is actually not true. I can't do any of this. And you just let go more and more, not because you're so wise, but because you can't help it. And I find that so deeply helpful, this knowledge, that what I think is so wrong with me, the wrongness, is actually a blessing.

There were only losers around Jesus, and one of his disciples, the one who had a bit of brains, asked: "Why do these people come to you? What do they want?"

He had ego. But of course Jesus knew why: only they could see Jesus, only these wrong ones. They were able to surrender, everyone else was not.

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Incidentally, it was the same with Jesus. There were only losers around Jesus, and one of his disciples, the one who had a bit of brains, asked: "Why do all these people come to you? What do they want here?" He had ego. But of course Jesus knew why they were coming: only they could see Jesus, only these wrong ones. They were able to surrender, everyone else was not. And the wrongness or the tragedy or the stroke of fate or the inability, no matter how you experience it, that is what enables you to surrender. And that is the only thing we have to learn.

The wrongness or the tragedy or the stroke of fate or the inability, no matter how you experience it, that is what enables you to surrender.

And that is the only thing we have to learn.

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[Mona:] Exactly. And for me, it was actually the case that it lost its power somewhere. So, for me it was actually a kind of realization: yes, of course I must be wrong in this wrong world, because that's not life. What I thought was life isn't, and then I have to feel wrong, so that's absolutely right. So, for me it was also somehow a realization that made it easy.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, once you get to the other side, you realize that it all makes sense.

[Mona:] Yes. Everything the other way around, but then it all makes sense.

The invisible magic of life

Link to topic in video at 52m09s

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, I experience this again and again in the practical world. I still do everything wrong and make mistakes all the time, and I just had that again this morning when I forgot something that I should have done in my job, and then I got a call. I knew I was about to have a conversation. Of course I felt wrong, and I just did what I always do. I just surrendered everything. I said, "Okay, God, I'm ready for anything. Sorry, I am like this."

I was just here in this moment and I surrendered, like I always do, even without an incident like this. And it wasn't a problem at all; it wasn't a problem at all. Everything went very easily and beautifully, and we had a wonderful conversation. There was no problem at all. I experience again and again: the more I am in this surrender, the more miraculously everything changes.

People believe that when God intervenes in life, magical thing happens: You get mugged, but the mugger doesn't stand a chance because some angel with a sword comes. But it doesn't work that way.

All these things no longer happen because people just don't want to rob you.

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People believe that when God intervenes in life, some magical thing happens: You get mugged on the street, but the mugger doesn't stand a chance because then suddenly some angel with a sword comes, or some magical helper. But it doesn't work that way. All these things no longer happen because people who then come into your life or get close to you suddenly just don't want to rob you at all, but on the contrary might want to give you something because they realize that you need money for a bus ticket.

You know, that kind of thing. You don't even notice the magic of life so much because everything happens so conveniently and naturally as if it were the most natural thing in the world; all the problems that you imagine don't happen anymore; all the misfortunes no longer happen, bad people you're always expecting simply don't appear anymore at all. There is no opportunity anymore for heroic angels to jump to our side, because it's simply no longer part of our lives.

You don't even notice the magic of life because everything happens so conveniently and naturally as if it were the most natural thing in the world;

problems don't happen anymore; misfortunes no longer happen, bad people simply don't appear anymore. There is no opportunity anymore for heroic angels to jump to our side.

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[Mona:] Yes, that's my experience too. And as I was listening, the information just came to me. It is because we are no longer in resistance. The subtle resistance that is there... If you had been in a subtle resistance this morning, if you had started justifying yourself on the phone, then you would have made a problem out of it, and then it would have been a problem.

So, we do it ourselves. And I also find that in places where I might have been so afraid or had an uneasy feeling or something, when this resistance or this mind in me, which is already anticipating some drama, falls away, then it doesn't happen at all.

[Dhyan Mikael:] And it's interesting. You can't trick life – or your own soul.

I've had an exchange with someone during the last few days.

I had advised her to just feel her feelings – just accept whatever feelings come – and I told her: then it gets easier; then the miracles will happen. And she responded: "Yes, I've already tried that, but nothing happened." And then I told her: yes, that's not how it works. If you say "Thy will be done" so that then your will is done... that's not how it works. Always surrender completely without expecting anything – true surrender, no matter what it means.

I had advised her to just feel her feelings – just accept whatever feelings come – and I told her: then it gets easier; then the miracles will happen. And she responded: "Yes, I've already tried that, but nothing happened."

But that's not how it works. If you say "Thy will be done" so that then your will is done... that's not how it works.

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"Surrender, comma, so that I then..." is not surrender. That does not work. Then the difficulties continue. Then the suffering continues. Then the fear remains. Only when I have let go of that in all its depths, only then does relief come. Only then comes the new life. And then, of course, you keep discovering new things that you can let go of. Sure, it goes on and on.

"Surrender, comma, so that I then..." is not surrender. That does not work. Then the difficulties continue. Then the suffering continues. Then the fear remains.

Only when I have let go in all its depths, only then comes the new life. And then, of course, you keep discovering new things that you can let go of.

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[Mona:] Yes, and you can already feel it. True surrender has a completely different quality in the body than a "surrender so that..." Everything is still in tension in the body, in the anticipation of the "so that". So, that can't be tricked. This higher intelligence, this means well with us, and it tells us this until we understand what it means.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, we are basically lying to ourselves. And although we don't want to know it, there is something deep inside us that naturally knows, and we can't fool ourselves. It simply doesn't work. There is no God who judges us. There is no life watching: well, is he doing it right this time? It's us ourselves. We are only satisfied with ourselves when we really sincerely let go. And that's what Jesus said all the time, again and again. And every Guru says the same thing. The secret is not really a secret at all.

[Mona:] No. And also in this surrender, I experience that there is a form of touch that is so precious, that is so beautiful, and yet it is not possible for me to do it all the time. So, of course, it's within my grasp, and in no time I'm back in something else. You know it too, you nod. It's here, we know it's here, and yet... It becomes more, of course, when we know about it. I can have it at any time, but there is so much other programming that also says: oh, how nice that is, yes, wonderful, and in a flash I'm somewhere else again.

[Dhyan Mikael:] That's exactly how it is. That's why meditation is so great. I love talking about it because is such a practical help, you know, in a very non-esoteric, practical way. And most people think that when you do the Samarpan Meditation, that the goal is to rest for half an hour in this letting go and in this peace or in this stillness or whatever. And then people do the meditation and experience something completely different. And I explain the same thing to them again and again.

It's exactly about experiencing what you have just described: you meditate, and this meditation is surrender. You rest with your attention in the crown chakra, where there are no thoughts, and when you go up there with your attention, this only works if you let go of everything you want and expect. But if you then rest there in silence, then it doesn't take even half a second, and in this silence, you then notice the noise that is inside you: the things that cling to something; all these subtle desires; the subtle fears; all the thoughts.

And that's why you meditate: so that you perceive it as if it had nothing to do with you. As if you were taking all these things and taking them with you into the light of God, taking them up into the crown chakra: "Look, this is how I am, dear God. I am thinking all the time. Look, this is how I am, dear God. I am still afraid, even though I know better."

And that's why you meditate: so that you perceive it as if it had nothing to do with you. As if you were taking all these things with you into the light of God, into the crown chakra: "Look, this is how I am, dear God. I am thinking all the time. I am still afraid, even though I know better."

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And also here: you practise surrendering, so to speak, first of all surrendering to how stupid you actually are yourself, and in the course of this, you practise this letting go and this suchness again and again every morning, and you experience every morning again that God can actually only smile about it, if you are willing to be as stupid as you are. And in meditation, that's what you experience – but you can make peace with it. And there happens letting go, without you being able to do it yourself – simply by being willing to be the way you are.

And that is the magical thing about this meditation. You don't need to do anything, you can't do anything at all, but you also don't need to be good. You don't need to be quiet; you don't need to be thoughtless – nobody can do that – and everything changes. And what we keep talking about here all the time, this surrender, this "Thy will be done", you learn that indirectly, so to speak, through a very practical, simple matter. And I find that so helpful, because talking about it is one thing, it's contagious, it conveys something.

I was with my spiritual Master for seventeen years. But it wasn't until this meditation came to me that it was like a turbo. Since then, I haven't done anything spiritual, except meditate, and my life is changing at a speed that I can only marvel at.

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But it's my experience that you need something practical in life to practise this; to anchor it. And, you know, I was with my spiritual Master Soham for seventeen years. That is the best Master there is. Sure, it's mine. Everyone says that about theirs, of course. But mine is really mine. And you... he taught me everything I needed to be happy. But it wasn't until this meditation came to me that it was... Well, first of all I realized that I was really only at the very beginning of this journey, but at the same time it was like a turbo.

Since then, I haven't done anything spiritual, except meditate, and my life is changing at a speed that I can only marvel at. And that's why I also talk about it with such passion, because I've been on the path for so long in this life – not to mention all the other lives – and I thought I'd found everything there is. But when this meditation came to me, it became so much easier and so much quicker and so much simpler and so direct.

And it's just a tool – a tool for any normal person, for people like me, such normal people, and anything is possible with it. And that's why I'm so excited about it. You know, you hear the stories of Jesus and about surrender and about "Thy will be done", and then the video is over, and then you think, "Yeah, okay, great, now what do I do?" You have to practice it. You can practise it, that's the beauty of it. Maybe you don't even have to practise it, but you can practise it. And that's great. That's great.

That's why I talk about it with such passion, because I've been on the path for so long in this life – not to mention all the other lives – and I thought I'd found everything.

But when this meditation came to me, it became so much easier and so much quicker and so much simpler and so direct.

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[Mona:] So, I have the impression when I'm listening that it is like a subtle redemption of layers and more and more you get this deeper truth... So, Godlikeness expresses itself from within, but we don't do it; by simply redeeming ourselves more and more, the way you describe it. I can actually empathize with that.

Heaven is at hand

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[Dhyan Mikael:] It's exactly as you say, you've just expressed it much more beautifully and poetically than I have. For me it's always like that... I often have the feeling... When I do this meditation, then you rest here with your attention, in the crown chakra... Jesus said... Jesus taught us how to pray, that's where I started our conversation; and he often referred to it as "sitting at the door to the Temple". He also said yes: "the Kingdom of God is at hand". When I do this meditation now and put my hand up here, I always have to think of Jesus: yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Jesus taught us how to pray, and he often referred to it as "sitting at the door to the Temple". He also said : "the Kingdom of God is at hand".

When I do this meditation and put my hand up here, I always have to think of Jesus: yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

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And for me it is like this: when I rest with my attention in the crown chakra, up here, I always have the feeling that I'm sitting at the door to the temple. I just sit there, and all the rest happens by itself. These layers you talk about, this release, it must all happen by itself. You can't do anything about it. I just sit down at the door to the temple for half an hour every morning, and all the rest happens. That's what Jesus said. That's what the Gurus say. And then, everything happens by itself.

When I rest with my attention in the crown chakra, up here, I have the feeling that I'm sitting at the door to the temple.

I just sit there, and all the rest happens by itself.

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[Mona:] It's similar for me, but it just happens during the day, and the image always comes up: now the soul is sitting before God again and praying, and it's totally beautiful. Totally beautiful. A totally touching feeling. It's similar to what you say: in front of the door.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, you sit at the door to the temple. You can't walk through the gate yourself, you can't. It is not allowed. It is not possible. When 'I' walk through the gate, I don't walk through this gate,then I walk through some other gate, but not through this one. Through this gate you are carried very slowly. Very slowly.

You sit at the door to the temple. You can't walk through the gate yourself, you can't. When 'I' walk through the gate, then I walk through some other gate, but not through this one.

Through this gate you are carried very slowly. Very slowly.

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[Mona:] Yes, and that is, I hear it with you and with me, where there is such a happiness, such a bliss; where you know where the path is going, without knowing it.

[Dhyan Mikael:] What happens then is that you live there more and more. I spoke earlier about this two hundred percent of life. More and more I live inside, and more and more I sit all the time at the door to the temple, to Heaven, at the door to Heaven. This is exactly the same. And the more I do it, the more I live this life.

I spoke earlier about this two hundred percent of life. More and more I live inside, and more and more I sit at the door to the temple, to Heaven, at the door to Heaven. And the more I do it, the more I live this life. It's not something ungrounded, it's not something esoteric; it's a very practical guide for life.

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It's a very practical thing. It's not something ungrounded, it's not something esoteric; it's a very practical guide for life. Jesus spoke very practically, and so did every Guru. People always think these are spiritual weirdos. They are actually the only people who know in a very practical way how life really works.

Jesus spoke very practically, and so did every Guru. People always think these are spiritual weirdos. They are actually the only people who know in a very practical way how life really works.

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[Mona:] Yes, above all, life then has a completely different quality in its worldliness if I am not fixated on the worldly and on the dramas, but if I have a heavenly mood in me, it is completely different.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. This worldly life is a ladder so that we can find our way back to our Divinity.

And if we use the ladder as it is intended and reach the goal, then the ladder is happy and the soul is happy and everything fits together wonderfully.

Then it all suddenly makes sense. Then everything, what you so often call suffering or difficulties, it all makes sense. Then you're grateful for everything because you know exactly where it has taken you.

This worldly life is a ladder so that we can find our way back to our Divinity. And if we use the ladder as it is intended and reach the goal, then the ladder is happy and the soul is happy. Then what you call suffering or difficulties all makes sense.

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[Mona:] Yes. I often feel that way now when I think about my parents and the suffering that they brought into my life, and that I bow down and say thank you. It wasn't them, but it was life that brought about exactly the constellation that I needed. But there is now an understanding and gratitude for this.

[Dhyan Mikael:] I have often experienced this in Satsang with Soham. People would come and complain to this Master about their suffering: "Life is so terrible", and then they would say: "Why does this have to happen?" And then Soham would look at them and ask: "Would you have ended up in Satsang without this?" No, of course not! "You see, that's it." And then they understood.

[Mona:] Yes, it feels good for me right now. That was a lovely conversation. Is it like that for you too?

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, totally round, really great.

[Mona:] Good, then thank you, Mikael. Wonderful.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Thank you, Mona. Thank you for these wonderful spontaneous exchanges about a topic I know nothing about.

[Mona:] Yes, me too.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Ultimately, it always leads back to the same topic, but each time a different hook, each time a different direction, each time a different way of talking about it, and I find that incredibly enriching.

[Mona:] Exactly, and each time it can touch a person differently depending on how it is meant to be.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, exactly.

[Mona:] Well, thank you.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Thank you.