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Putting God first

Interview by Mona Lange of May 10, 2024.
German with English subtitles

Interview in German. English subtitles coming soon.

Topics: Who is this God? I know less and less. Is it the head speaking, or God? I can't and don't want to judge it. Not being careful. What if you go round in circles? What is guiding me, I know nothing about. Forget everything you think you know. You can do it – but meditate. Confusing cause and effect. Heaven comes later. A path for ordinary people. What is it like to be close to God?

About this Video:

A conversation about God – can that go well? Not only did it go well – it became a very interesting rollercoaster ride. Two people who experienced their awakening and their journey in completely different ways and who deal with their current experience in a completely different way – that made for excitement and surprises.

What drives me is not so much the telling of my own story, but rather the answer to the question: what can a person who has not yet found their path use as a guide? And how does it all work when you have no clarity, but rather the feeling of going astray and being wrong?

Mona's and my different perspectives helped us to work out the answers to these essential questions wonderfully clearly in the course of the discussion. In the end, I could only marvel as it became clear how tiny the differences between us actually are.

I really enjoy the inspiring interviews with Mona and I am already looking forward to the next one in June. Thank you so much!

Links to the topics in this video:

(please find the complete transcript below)

  1. Who is this God?

  2. I know less and less

  3. Is it the head speaking, or God?

  4. I can't and don't want to judge it

  5. Not being careful

  6. What if you go round in circles?

  7. What is guiding me, I know nothing about

  8. Forget everything you think you know

  9. You can do it – but meditate

  10. Confusing cause and effect

  11. Heaven comes later

  12. A path for ordinary people

  13. What is it like to be close to God?

Complete text for reading along:

[Mona:] Hello, dear Mikael. I'm delighted that you're here and that we're exchanging ideas again. And again, I was allowed to choose a topic. I've been pregnant with a topic for quite a while now, I'd almost say, which I'd like to discuss with you. And when my latest newsletter arrived, I felt: yes, that's right, now is the time.

I would like us to explore together what it means when we put God first in our lives. I sense that this is perhaps different from what we imagine it to be in church, and you also said this in a video a long time ago... to feel it, to see it, to sense it, maybe we already do. That should be the topic: what it means when we put God first in our lives.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Wow, what a wonderful topic, my favorite topic. Well, you're really knocking on my door. Yes, just yesterday I received a question about this from someone. I'm trying to remember it right now.

I can't remember it, of course... Anyway, we'll just have to start from scratch. Yes, so you're right. This 'putting God first' thing is very different from what we Christians think of. We could talk about it all evening. Should I just start?

[Mona:] Yes, just start.

Who is this God?

[Dhyan Mikael:] Where is this God that we should put first? That is the question. Who is this? If I put God first, who or what am I following? I like to say I'm a pragmatist, and it's not about any concepts or ideas, but when Jesus said that... Jesus said this: "Put God first and everything else will follow". He meant this in a very practical way, but no one understood him. No one knew how to listen to this God he kept talking about: his Father.

And I always need it to be very practical, very real. I'm an engineer, I like to say, and for me it's like this: when it says 'put God first', then for me it means: I get quiet, I go inside, and I look at what I find there: what do I find there – quite specifically, as I said, not just some ideas, but: What do i have energy for? What do I feel joy for? Where am I drawn to? What do I feel openness for? What do I feel curiosity for?

Very straightforward human things that everyone knows but usually no one listens to. We can't imagine that this is supposed to be God. We have an esoteric idea of God. Maybe we associate it with the image of a person or a figure, something great, something out there or up there, but God is what gives me the energy to live, and everyone knows that.

There are things that you feel energy for, just like that. Sometimes it's things that are useful and that others also find good. But sometimes there are things that others find completely stupid and completely wrong, but you still have the energy for them. You often think it's wrong or stupid yourself, but you still feel the energy. Sometimes you feel no energy at all for something, no openness at all.

And these very direct, inner impulses, this is God guiding me. And the interesting thing is... we like to imagine that when I become open to God, when I connect with God, when I have arrived, then I have clarity, then I see my path in front of me, then I know where I am going, then I understand the world. And for me it's the other way around.

When it says 'put God first', then for me it means: I get quiet, I go inside, and I look at what I find there:

What do i have energy for?
What do I feel joy for?
Where am I drawn to?
What do I feel openness for?
What do I feel curiosity for?

Very straightforward human things that everyone knows but usually no one listens to.

I know less and less

The more I rest within myself, the more I arrive, whatever that means, the less I know. I am simply here and hear God, now, in this moment, and afterwards in that moment, and then in that moment. And from that, just like a puzzle, one step after the other shows up, but I never know what's going to happen next. That's part of it. God leads, not me! And once you start to listen to that, you discover how magical and how simple this actually is.

Children can do that; they have a very direct perception of their curiosity, of their openness. And you can observe it, it's wonderful! We adults have that too, but superimposed on it is everything we think is important; everything we think is reasonable; everything we think we want or need. And then we simply no longer perceive this. But each of us has this compass built into us. Yes, that's a start from my side.

I never know what's going to happen next. That's part of it.

God leads, not me!

[Mona:] Yes, I'm very much with you there, where you emphasize this innermost and also, I've also experienced this in myself, this joy. And I think one has to pay attention to that. There is also a joy that is still very strongly fixated on the external, the way we are brought up or shaped collectively. Well, I knew that from myself too, that I could get excited about something and there was joy. But that was more like joy from a separate mode. It wasn't yet from this real depth of mine.

And from this depth, a completely different energy is made available, and that, that also has other properties. For example, I notice that this energy that comes, and this joy, do not overwhelm me. When I get into a mode of being overwhelmed, then something else interferes. This deep following of God, that is gentle, careful, that leads me, that leads me lovingly. In a very wise voice, it points me towards my path, again and again. I know that at the beginning, when I noticed this, it mixed a little with my usual approach.

Then I sensed it, I would rush off with a lot of fanfare, but that wasn't it. So now I realize: this voice, it needs the silence, it needs the gentleness, it needs my attention again and again, and it is totally close. It's so close, it's exhilarating. It is what I have always wished for as a counterpart actually, this understanding of what is there. Because who could understand me better than this deepest, from which I was basically born.

And what you say about clarity, I can feel it in myself: there is no clarity that I know anything right now, and yet there is always an incredible clarity in every moment about what I have to do. And this clarity is so amazing that it often completely contradicts my mind. So, the mind sometimes asks several times: do you really mean that? However, this inner clarity, this inner knowledge, this God-guided, is so immovable in me that no matter how crazy it may seem to my usual imagination, it always turns out to be the only right way. And a certain trust grows from this over time.

Is it the head speaking, or God?

[Dhyan Mikael:] So, the crux of the matter is this: when people hear what I have just said or what you have just said, the very next question is: how do I know whether I am listening to my stupid head right now, whether I am falling for it, or whether I am listening to God? You've just described the difference in how it feels.

But for me it's like this: there are moments when I clearly feel: "Yes, I know who is giving me this inspiration right now." But these moments are rare. Most of the time, I don't know whether what I'm sensing is my own stupidity, my head, my mind, or whether it's my soul, God.

And that is the crux of the matter. Most of the time we can't know, and you have to be willing for that. To follow it, even though I'm not sure. If I were sure, then it wouldn't be an art, then everyone would do it. But the holier you become, the closer to God you are, the less you know. That's how I feel. I actually feel more insecure most of the time than I used to. Back then, I still had my ideas. I don't know if what I'm feeling is good.

I have to want it anyway. That's the crux of this path. And of course, the feeling for it is becoming more and more refined, more and more subtle. From the outside, when other people see a person like that, they feel: "Wow, he only does good things." But for you yourself, it feels completely different. You become not only more sensitive to God, but also to everything else inside you, including all the garbage. And that's why I can never be sure. And to be prepared for this: to put God first, even though I never know who I'm putting first. But I don't have a choice. It's like being blind.

It feels like you're always blind. But if you just follow it, again and again, again and again, then you have certain experiences. Sometimes you discover that what you've done is wonderful; sometimes you discover that maybe it wasn't such a good idea; but it's always the only way, and that's how you learn. Not up there – there is not more clarity, but something does change. I have the feeling that my life is becoming more and more wondrous and more and more secure and more and more amazing, but my feeling when I sense this guide within me is mostly as uncertain as ever.

I've gotten used to this uncertainty: I know I can't know. God is looking out for me.

That's surrender.

But I've gotten used to this uncertainty: I know I can't know. God is looking out for me. That's surrender. People like to think that when you're enlightened, and when you're awakened and when you're on the path, then that uncertainty and that ambiguity disappears, but for me, it's like I'm now ready to know nothing. This is 'putting God first': I, Lord, know nothing. I don't know. You, Lord, God, you know, and into your hands I put my life. And that's something that most people find very, very difficult in the beginning, in the early years.

People like to think that when you're enlightened, then that uncertainty and that ambiguity disappears, but for me, it's like I'm now ready to know nothing.

This is 'putting God first': I, Lord, know nothing. You, Lord, God, you know, and into your hands I put my life.

[Mona:] Yes, I'm with you there, although I realize that there are certain clues where I can check this. For example, the question: God is love, and when there is such an impulse to feel and compare: am I really in love at this moment? And indeed, in love... not in this small, narrow love, what I once thought was love, but really in my current, mature understanding of love... And also: am I deeply connected to at this point? It is also characterized by a certain lightness.

And it needs, I would agree with you, it needs this willingness on my part to take risks. That I ultimately compare it somehow and try to see from which source in me does it come now, and that's where a certain certainty actually develops over time, but then also to be prepared to take the step, and if it turns out that it wasn't totally this divine path, then at this point I also recognize exactly why that wasn't the case, and have a learning experience there that will make my decision easier the next time.

So, this unconditional willingness to follow this divine will, to put God first, and then, over time, to get more of a feeling for God and the divine will and, I would also say, for this genius in God. That grows over time. But yes, in the beginning it is indeed very, very difficult and extremely challenging.

I can't and don't want to judge it

[Dhyan Mikael:] It's different for me than it is for you.

You say, there are points where you can cross-check and certain criteria.

I'm a very radical person, and I realize that as soon as 'I' think I could somehow countercheck something, I have the feeling that the alarm bells go off in me that I'm on a slippery slope here. I can't know: that's the special thing about this path. I know what you mean. You get a feel for it, but usually only afterwards.

But I don't think you can avoid being prepared to be completely ignorant and unsure again and again and again. It's quite tempting to think that you can test or recognize God's guidance by any standards I can understand, and that can't be. It can't be. It's like some kind of purgatory: I'm being tested again and again. I have energy for something. Sure, sometimes it's obvious: that's good, that's a nice idea, I'm not talking about things like that.

But again and again there are points where I realize: "Oh wow! This can't be divine." But the energy is there, and the curiosity is there, and the openness is there, and the opportunity is there. God is giving me... it's all there. But all my knowledge, all my wisdom says: this can't be good. And I do, and that's why I say I'm very radical: and I do it anyway. And then I say: "Okay, God, I can"... and for me that's what makes my life so easy, and that's why I don't need my head there anymore – the thoughts.

Not being careful

I'm like, "God, I can't recognize it. If this is stupid now, you have to stop it somehow. I'm doing this now. You give me the openness, the curiosity, the joy of it. I'm doing it now. If that's wrong"... And I don't even want to be able to judge it. That is no fun! Something gets tied up in knots, the intellect immediately comes back in somehow. "I'll just do it now", I then say. I've done that so many times before. I then say: "Okay God, and if that's not good: you have to stop it somehow." And he does.

Either I just walk straight into misfortune, so to speak... Either, I can do that and realize: it's not misfortune at all! It's completely different to what I thought. Or I try it, and it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And that's what you discover, you know. You discover: I don't need to be careful. This life is guided by God, I don't need to be careful. And therein lies the relief. Anything else for me would be... maybe you can do that, but for me everything else is too exhausting, something gets tangled up inside me.

I learned that from my Master Soham, by the way. You know, I was with him basically every day for twenty years on our many journeys, and he always did it so radically. We were a good match. We still fit well together because we're really radical guys. And I've seen him do the same thing so many times. He had an impulse for something that any normal person would say is totally inane and wrong, but he did it exactly the same way. He knew: he could rely on life. Nothing could happen to him.

Either it turns out to be a total blessing, or something happens and he's protected, or it doesn't happen or... you know what I mean? But that's where I learned... that's when I copied it from him, and then I lived that way myself. And that's why I can say with conviction and experience: we don't need to be careful. And I can't put God first in any other way, because for me 'putting God first' is a way of not trusting everything I know, everything I could know, everything I could judge, and letting it go. So, I can't check it. I just can't check it. Never.

[Mona:] I understand what you mean. Maybe it's the feminine with me. It's also not that the head checks it, but it's an intuitive kind of comparison. And what I also have, where I have this certainty: nothing can happen. So, if we are prepared to follow this path, basically an automatic correction by God always takes place. I once had a dream, I was in an avatar room, and I was told that I can now work here in the future. And I said: "Yes, great, then tell me how to do it, I want to be trained." Then they said: "No, nothing can happen, just do it!" Yes, well, that's the Divine.

We do it, and if we are attentive, it corrects it, and we also understand it at the point where it is corrected. We then get the feeling for it with time. And for me it's like this: I sense that there is an eternal power that wants to be realized, that wants to blossom through us. And that is also what it means for me to put God first: to feel what this eternal force wants, also the connection to the soul, the contact with God. All of this then brings us more and more onto this track, and over time, more and more certainty sets in. At least that's how I experience it.

What if you go round in circles?

[Dhyan Mikael:] Of course I understand exactly what you're saying, every word. I then always try to speak to those people who don't have that intuition. I often have it, but sometimes I don't, and then what do I do? And that's the question. And everyone knows that. You find yourself in such a situation at least once a day, usually more often. And then? You feel like you're going round in circles. You feel that you can't rely at all on what you perceive. You don't know what's right and wrong at all, and when you start thinking about it, of course it only gets worse.

Basically, I always talk about the worst-case scenario: what do I do if I have the feeling that I've lost my way? And that's how most people feel.

The topic of the video is: "How do I put God first? How do I do that?" Yes, well, when I'm feeling God so beautifully, it's not an issue, but what do I do the other ninety, eighty or seventy percent of the time?

I do something completely wrong: I don't think about what the Divine wants. I don't think about what is right.

Instead, I just listen to God: What do I feel like right now?

What do I like to do right now?

I do something completely wrong: I don't think about what the Divine wants.
I don't think about what is right.

Instead, I just listen to God:
What do I feel like right now?
What do I like to do right now?

And I always want to come back to this which is so incredibly normal, because that's where we find God. The other is all true, and sometimes you have incredibly beautiful insights. But here, in this normality, we always find God, but that's where we usually overlook him. That's where he lives.

I always want to come back to this which is so incredibly normal, because that's where we find God.

The other is all true, and sometimes you have incredibly beautiful insights. But here, in this normality, we always find God, but that's where we usually overlook him.

That's where he lives.

I once observed this with my Master Soham years ago.

He was totally unclear about something and then he said: "Interesting. I'm completely unclear about that. Then it probably means I'm not going to do anything with it." Okay, nothing. People always want clarity. The clarity only comes when it is needed, otherwise there is no clarity. God speaks directly to us, so directly that we miss it all the time. We make up some subtle ideas about the Divine.

People always want clarity.

The clarity only comes when it is needed, otherwise there is no clarity.

We are here, in this divine body, in this world that God has provided for us to find our way.

God speaks directly to us, so directly that we miss it all the time.

What is guiding me, I know nothing about

The spiritual path consists of two parts: discovering the path within – I meditate for this – and living this life as God guides me. And through that I learn everything I need to learn, but automatically. And I know today... I have learned so much in the last two weeks. I've had a very intense few weeks, but I couldn't tell you what I've learned. It's all gone. Everything I learned yesterday is no longer in my consciousness today – because it has become normal; because it is integrated.

The spiritual path consists of two parts:

discovering the path within – I meditate for this – and living this life as God guides me.

And through that I learn everything I need to learn, but automatically.

And that is guiding me now, but I don't know about it. It's like a child learning math and then, when they've learned any particular things, they just can do it. They don't have the feeling that they know anything now. They just add up the numbers and think that it works by itself. That's how I feel: my life is becoming more and more automatic. This guidance that is there more and more, that flows more and more... I sometimes realize that it's there, but it's not something I can rest on or be proud of or that I'm always aware of.

Everything I learned yesterday is no longer in my consciousness today – because it has become normal; because it is integrated.

And that is guiding me now, but I don't know about it.

It's there, and yet I have to feel ignorant again and keep surrendering to it: "Okay God, you know better. I have no idea. I just have no idea." And I'll say it again. Therein lies the blessing: in this willingness to not want this clarity that everyone wants, this certainty that everyone wants. And then you are free. Then you can relax. Everything else leads to stress, somehow. That's how it seems to me.

Therein lies the blessing: in this willingness to not want this clarity that everyone wants, this certainty that everyone wants.

And then you are free. Then you can relax.

[Mona:] Although that's how it was for me... You took a very gradual path, and for me, there was this break in my life. That's why I can see a very strong difference, and there are some clues. One clue is that I have become more essential. My life has become simpler. I have become much slower. My soul needed a completely different rhythm from me. So, coming into harmony with the Divine, also with the love for me, has already changed a lot. Also to recognize: where am I at a certain point?

Maybe I'm just switching to a distraction, because I can't stand some pain inside me... Then to recognize: it would make sense to go back to the place. It doesn't resolve itself. I also realize that being led by God also means: God knows how my healing happens. He shows me things that come up, yes, that are certainly also unpleasant, where I am confronted with things. There is such wise guidance, where I have clues through these two different lives as to where this comes from.

And I also feel that if I follow this, then my life is filled with fulfillment and phases of happiness. I didn't know that before. Before I had everything I actually needed to be happy, but something was always missing for me. And now there is such a wholeness and also an all-connectedness with all of life, with the vitality in all of life. For me, this also means perceiving this aliveness outside in nature, seeing the depths in it, feeling the depths.

These are all qualities that I didn't have before. And there I already notice the difference when you put God first. For me, that also means: recognizing God in everything and loving everything. It didn't work right from the start, yes, there are also unpleasant appearances, but now I can look deeper and there is always a place of love in everyone. At least that's how I experience it.

Forget everything you think you know

[Dhyan Mikael:] That's why I like to talk about it in my radical way, because I find it so liberating, you know. I have... what's the best way to say this now?

You were just talking about how things often show up, and then you know very well, "Okay, I'm only doing that out of distraction," because I don't want to feel something, for example, and you know that doesn't lead to anything.

I am the disciple of a very radical Master, which is probably why I have become so radical. And he has always given me the same advice throughout my life, the life I've had with him for twenty-four years: "Forget everything you think you know, including these things you're saying right now. Forget all that. Do what you feel like – now."

And that always felt so wrong and so unspiritual. Let me give you two examples.

I have a very sensitive body, anyway, and as far as coffee is concerned... About five percent of people in the western world have a certain gene, which means that a certain enzyme in a liver metabolic chain is not formed sufficiently, and I am one of them, and the effect of this is that caffeine is not broken down. It is broken down, but extremely slowly. It used to be like this at school: we often went to the bakery next door during the morning break and drank a can of Coke, which was 'in' at the time, and my classmates didn't mind at all.

If I drank a can of Coke, then I didn't sleep the next night; if I drank it in the morning. I was awake all night, I was basically standing in bed so to speak, and it's still like that today. I love good espresso, but when I drink coffee, I don't sleep. And I love the stuff... And once I've had my coffee for a few days, my sleep gets shallower and shallower. The caffeine level gradually rises, even though I don't drink much coffee, because it doesn't get broken down.

If I then stop drinking coffee, it takes about a week and then, it is gone again. I'm only saying this by way of introduction to illustrate that this has really blatant effects, for me completely obvious effects, not nice effects, and yet I've always had a craving for coffee, again and again. I knew: it's not good. I knew: I am probably distracting myself from some feelings, I don't know which ones. But my way, the way I've learned and that's the way I've researched, is to forget all that, to forget all the clever things.

I want coffee, so I'll have one now. And of course, I regretted it afterwards, but what am I supposed to do? I either follow God, or I don't. As soon as I start with: is this God or not? It's too complicated for me. I don't trust myself. I don't trust myself and my perception. I want a coffee, then I drink it. I've done that over and over again. I tell you, I've done such inane things... So, I bought myself a really nice espresso machine, me, who can't stand coffee, because I just wanted to find out. I thought that must be possible somehow.

I bought decaffeinated espresso, and really great espresso at that. It tasted really good. But even decaffeinated coffee still has seven percent caffeine, and even this minimal amount was too much for me. So, I sold it, the machine, and I sold all my coffee stuff. And I was so happy, I felt so much better. A year later, I felt like it again. I bought a coffee machine again. I started all over again, and four months later, I sold it again. And now it's just gone. It's gone, for the first time in my life.

This back and forth that I told you about went on for years, for years! I knew it wasn't good. I knew of course I was compensating for something. But I trust God completely, you know, really completely and completely, only then will my life be easy. I do what I feel like doing. It has to be right, and that's how I've learned certain things in depth... certain things have settled in me, at a depth, and then you can really relax. It's just done and over with, by itself.

Let me give you another example: women, sex. You know, I had already been with my spiritual Master for fifteen years at that time, I knew through and through that there was nothing out there to gain. But there are certain forces and certain desires, and if they are there... what do I do now? Yes, I know it doesn't make me happy. I know that. But when the attraction is suddenly there, what do I do now?

Do I now follow the attraction, or do I not follow it in this case, because I know it won't lead to anything? And already you are in a balancing act. I was radical. When I felt this attraction, I followed it, every time. And the issue was resolved in a way and to a depth that I can't do directly with my consciousness. It only happens by experiencing it again and again and again and again.

I was radical. When I felt this attraction, I followed it, every time.

And the issue was resolved in a way and to a depth that I can't do directly with my consciousness. It only happens by experiencing it again and again and again and again.

You can do it – but meditate

I would like to give one last example. Swamiji, my Guru who brings Samarpan Meditation, he knows what is good and bad. The example I am talking about now is alcohol. Of course, he knows that alcohol is not good for people. He has spoken to alcoholics. He was in a clinic for addicts where he was invited to give a lecture. And he wasn't the only speaker, there were lots of other really clever people there, and these experts gave the alcoholics good advice and explained why it's no good and what they can do to get rid of it.

And these were severe alcoholics, it was an addiction clinic we're talking about here, and Swamiji said to these people: "Don't try to change yourself. Don't try to stop drinking." Do you know what he told them? He told them, "If you drink one bottle of liquor today, drink two tomorrow! Drink two! Don't worry about it. Don't try to change yourself. But meditate!"

This trust in God... you know, the whole world, and especially your own head, and everything you know, even your experience, tells you: this is not good! It's not good! I shouldn't drink! This is really getting down to the nitty-gritty, this is about life. How is life really leading me? If I feel like getting drunk, isn't that also God speaking? That's the question! And I say: you can do it. But meditate! Become more conscious, and then you will find God in it. You will experience how what is a huge problem for you dissolves by itself.

If I feel like getting drunk, isn't that also God speaking? That's the question!

And I say: you can do it.
But meditate!

Become more conscious, and then you will find God in it. You will experience how what is a huge problem for you dissolves by itself.

Swamiji advised those alcoholics to simply try meditation for forty-five days, he does this with everyone. He always says: "Don't think about it, you have to try it for forty-five days, only then do you know what it is about. And after that, do what you want." After forty-five days, ninety percent of these alcoholics were sober. The doctors couldn't believe it. The alcoholics couldn't believe it. They didn't try anything.

I believe that if I want to put God first, if I want to listen to God, then there is no alternative but to radically listen to God.

Because I can't tell the difference.

They didn't try to do the right thing based on their experience and their intuition and what we have at our disposal as human beings. I believe that if I want to put God first, if I want to listen to God, then there is no alternative but to radically listen to God. Because I can't tell the difference. I can't tell. I think that's where you quickly get to the point where you go astray: because you become reasonable.

That's where you quickly get to the point where you go astray: because you become reasonable.

That's why I like Swamiji so much, because he also has this radicality.

[Mona:] When I listen to you, perhaps through meditation, this connection to God that I have through this one encounter is happening. For me, it's not something rational that says that, but I feel it... For me, this radicalism consists of not getting distracted. I have the impression that I am following God. Perhaps something has been activated in me without me having asked for it, which is exactly what happens through meditation. Because when I listen to you, basically the same thing happens. And that is to follow God in different ways. That's my impression.

[Dhyan Mikael:] I'm not talking to you at all.

[Mona:] Yes, yes, yes.

[Dhyan Mikael:] I'm talking to people who don't have that experience themselves. I think, the difference between you and me is very small, because I have this guidance that you experience and feel, just like you do. The only additional thing I do is to immediately forget everything that I realize about this guidance. You notice it and you think it's good. I notice it and know that I don't want to touch it at all. I don't want to know anything about it. That is God's business. I forget it again immediately; I'd rather be stupid. But underneath, the guidance is there, with you, with me.

[Mona:] Yes, that's the difference. I love that. I love exploring this God, basically, and feeling it more and more and following it. Yes, maybe that's the difference with us, exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] A tiny little one. There used to be a Guru, I don't know his name, but he, and what I have just told you made me think of this... He was enlightened, he had found God, and then he said: "Okay, if I've really found him, then this must be nailed down." And he forgot everything and tried to do everything wrong again.

He put it like this: he kept throwing away his enlightenment, and kept starting all over again, and kept coming back to God, every time. And at some point, he realized: he can't do anything wrong. No matter what he does, he is always enlightened again and is always back with God. And that is what I mean: if you do that, then Heaven becomes steadfast. Then you know: "Wow, yes, God is really here." I just love that. I love being such a radical guy.

[Mona:] Yes, I'm totally radical too, in that I just follow what I've just realized, because I love like that, not because it's reasonable. So, I heard a sentence the other day that I liked so much that it stayed with me for a whole week: "The Only Grace is loving God". Yes, and that's what I live for. That's what it is for me. But also, before I went into this conversation with you, I realized exactly what you said: The issue of putting God first... that's just our assumption.

In reality, He is in the first place anyway. It's just that we are often not yet in tune with that at all. It happens anyway, and it always takes us there anyway. So, God is in the first place anyway, and in the end, it doesn't matter whether we do it or don't. It's wise to get there somewhere, because it brings more joy to life.

[Dhyan Mikael:] To come back to the topic: how do I put God first? How do I hear God? How do I know what God wants from me? When you use words like 'God', then, whether you like it or not, you quickly have some concepts in your head, some ideas, and they don't seem to fit at all with what I'm talking about. These immediate, so deeply human things... to follow those... Of course, then you discover that they have an incredible depth.

If you really follow your energy, if you really follow your openness and curiosity, then you realize: "Wow, this is really God, within reach." And I always want to encourage that... You know, I also talk so stubbornly about the same thing over and over again because I want to encourage everyone not to go into the abstract, which we automatically like to do if we have no experience of something ourselves. When we talk to each other, I understand every word of what you say. I completely agree, we understand each other.

But I know so many people that when they hear certain words, certain expressions, it's... Without them knowing it, it becomes mental for them, concept. That's why I like to bring it down to the most mundane level possible, like: I'm totally tired and I can't move any more – that means, I don't have to do anything now, I shouldn't do anything. All this directness feels so unspiritual, so ungodly, but that's where God speaks, in these things. And that's where you discover him, again and again, again and again.

[Mona:] Yes, and for me at least, I also discovered God's love for me because I had difficulties with self-love for a long time. I could love everyone but myself. And I always found it kind of strange to love myself, and it was only when I felt this greater form of love, God's love for everything, for me, the love that flows through me, that I realized: Self-love is something completely different.

I mean, I believe that we also have different levels here; that at first, we perhaps actually make an effort to be good to ourselves and to love ourselves, but somehow, with me, there was a feeling somewhere that it wasn't quite right, until there was a breakthrough into the depths of love, and then it has such an undividedness, and it is there. It is simply there.

And God too. Putting God first... because you relate that to everyday life, and that's exactly how I see it too. For me, that actually means considering it possible that God is here, everywhere, in the depths, simply there, and that is not abstract at all, but to give it the opportunity to become aware of God.

That is just the Church and the concepts and God projected somewhere and we should be good, and we should love the other, and we should do this and that... that's so far away. It's so close, and anyway, teaching people to think it's possible that it's completely, completely different; that God is deeply there in every atom.

Confusing cause and effect

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, that's funny about the Church. You know, when people have experienced such a Saint... in India, they call it a Guru, in the Christian world they call it a Saint, it's all the same thing. And then you see: this person doesn't do anything bad.

All you feel is love. And then you think: to become like him, I mustn't do anything bad, and I have to love everyone. But people confuse cause and effect. They see the effect, but how he got there, this Saint, they don't know. And that's why there are so many misunderstandings in every church.

Not just in the Christian church – it's the same in all religions, everywhere. And the Saint got there by putting God first and by doing everything wrong, to excess, and then finding out: "Everything is good, I can't do anything wrong. It was always God who led me. I always thought I was a sinner. I always thought everything would go wrong, but he was always there."

People confuse cause and effect. They see the effect, but how he got there, this Saint, they don't know.

And that's why there are so many misunderstandings in every church.

Of course, you do have those moments when you feel God. I've just had a few such phases in the last few days, it was just really nice, but even then, I remember my Master's advice. When I used to tell him about something like this, he would say: "Okay, now forget it." He always said: "Okay, now forget it. What's here now?"

People who talk to me or write to me who say: "But I just don't feel it!" And that's what I want to talk to them about. To say... that's why I so stubbornly keep steering away from this beauty, because for the people who occasionally experience it, everything is okay. They don't even need a video like this, but 99.9 percent of people say: "Hey, you guys, what you're talking about, I'm not experiencing that, and what should I do now?"

And to speak to them and say: what you feel, your despair, your feeling that you have no direction at all, your feeling that you don't know God at all, the feeling that you are wrong, to let that be here... to find God in it; to accept that which does not seem divine at all. But I would like to refer to something else... [Mona:] But I would like to say something else.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, yes, please, please.

[Mona:] Because of course I've had this experience. I went through hell for eight years and I know these feelings very, very well. For me, 'finding God' first means finding myself, and this despair and this substitute feeling and horror and terror and everything I went through, and disorientation, was connected to the fact that I didn't find myself. And that had to do with trauma, with very early trauma.

And recognizing all these layers and gradually dissolving them ultimately led to really finding the connection with myself in depth and then also finding it everywhere and finding God. And ultimately there is no difference, because... So, for me, without trauma resolution and this compassion with me and understanding, and that needed a tenderness that I thought, that's not possible, yes... I'm doing that now... But it really needed this deepest, deepest love for this being, me, this divine being that I had lost. It was essential for me.

Heaven comes later

[Dhyan Mikael:] And that's what I meant, you know... You feel desperate and lost – and that's God, luring you in the right direction. He says, "Yes, I know you want to go to Heaven, but you go there first once, into despair, into disorientation. We'll take care of being lost for now. Heaven comes later," says God.

"Forget about Heaven, forget about these beautiful things." And then, life forces us to take care of what we consider to be completely unspiritual and stupid. But if we give it space, if we take care of it, if we invite it into our lives, if we start to love it... later we discover: that was the way to God, God is whispering to us.

You feel desperate and lost – and that's God, luring you in the right direction.

I want to say that again and again. No matter what a person's human experience looks like, no matter how unspiritual, no matter how unheavenly, no matter how unattractive: this is what's up now. This is God himself saying: "Hey! You wanted the way to Heaven. Here it is. Pain! Now it's pain's turn. Forget about heaven!" And that's what I want to encourage to again and again, over and over again. We can forget everything else. We only ever have to look at what is being served to me right now, right now.

No matter what a person's human experience looks like, no matter how unspiritual, no matter how unheavenly, no matter how unattractive: this is what's up now.

This is God himself saying:

"Hey! You wanted the way to Heaven. Here it is. Pain! Now it's pain's turn. Forget about heaven!".

And the rest will take care of itself.

We only ever have to look at what is being served to me right now.

And the rest will take care of itself.

[Mona:] Pain leads us directly. Pain has an incredible power of expression.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. It leads me to myself. All these unpleasant things that I didn't want, they all led me to myself. And they weren't as terrible as I actually thought.

All these unpleasant things that I didn't want, they all led me to myself.

And they weren't as terrible as I actually thought.

[Mona:] So, for years I thought I was the woman of pain. I had the impression that I was just pain. It wasn't physical pain, it was a different kind of pain, and it was distance from God.

A path for ordinary people

[Dhyan Mikael:] But what I actually wanted to say earlier was... You experienced your transformation very spontaneously and suddenly, and when I listen to you, I get the feeling that you are now content and happy where you have been catapulted to. But there are people who don't feel that way, and they want to know: what can I do? What can I do? There are people for whom it happens spontaneously and suddenly, and these are the ones who are best known in the West.

We've talked about it before, you could write a book about it, but for 99.9 percent of people it's very different, very different, and for them, the path of meditation– Samarpan Meditation, which I talk about in every video – is the way for ordinary people, for those who don't want to move to the Himalayas; for those who don't want to give up their lives; for those who just want to be human; for them, this is the way.

You do this meditation for half an hour a day in the morning, it's really easy, and this sensitivity to all the things you're talking about gradually becomes more on its own, without us having to know anything about it. Swamiji, who brings this meditation, he says: through it we develop the sensitivity to discover our own soul – and nothing else is God.

This is a very, very gradual process that takes many years... In your case, it actually took many years too, as you explained so beautifully in our first video. The trigger is sudden, and suddenly, everything is different, and then the work starts. But for normal people, the work starts without this sudden experience, but basically, the path is probably relatively the same. And through meditation it goes very gently and steadily and continuously.

It's a long path, for every person, for every single person. people don't want to hear that either. They're all looking for the pill that will do it in a weekend. And it's just not like that. Life is not like that. And by meditating, you can promote this inner growth process in a very simple, free, easy, uncomplicated way. Anyone can do it. Every housewife... everyone. Everyone.

It's a long path, for every person.

people don't want to hear that. They're all looking for the pill that will do it in a weekend. And it's just not like that.

Life is not like that.

You don't need to have any particular knowledge, you don't need intelligence, you don't need money. Anyone can do it. That's what I think is great about it.

[Mona:] I agree with you, and at the same time, I still feel the need to speak to people who can't meditate. I couldn't meditate because I was too traumatized, and my body resisted it and it didn't work. And then, for eight years, I lived mainly or mostly in silence, so I took the day as meditation, but I didn't meditate by sitting down. And unfortunately, I also experienced a lot of ostracism in my spiritual environment, because it was something like this: "What, you don't meditate?

That's not possible." And there are now also serious opinions that state that it doesn't work for severely traumatized people who very easily go into dissociation, who then just meditate over the trauma, and that people shouldn't despair if it doesn't work for them. I was someone who couldn't, and I almost despaired. That's why it's also important to me to speak to people. There are ways to do that too, other ways.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, that is very important. Swamiji himself, the Guru who brings this meditation, says the same thing. That is his mission in life: to simply spread this meditation. Yet he says: it's not for everyone. He says: "Try it out if you like, if you are interested." And that's why I keep talking about it – not because I believe that everyone should do it, but so that everyone gets the opportunity to hear it. And then, some people might become curious, and then it might be something for that person, but not for everyone.

[Mona:] Yes. And I also think... I know what it is. And there was even a book somewhere where I read that, it was by wise people who recommended exactly that somewhere. So, I also feel that if meditation, then this is certainly a very useful meditation, I can perceive it that way.

[Dhyan Mikael:] And, you know, people talk about meditation as if there is only one, and I want to say it like this: before I got to know Swamiji and Samarpan Meditation, I tried all kinds of meditations. I remember, twenty-five years ago I was reading Osho, and there's the book of one hundred and eight or I don't know how many meditations... I tried them all. When I went through my trauma, I was very lucky that I just had time. I basically had two years just for myself, which was great, and I sat in this house where I lived, and actually tried out one meditation after another the whole time.

And today... six and a half years ago, I got to know Samarpan Meditation, and today I know that nothing of all these things was meditation. These are exercises, mental exercises, which may be helpful for some people and for some people not, as you just mentioned with the trauma. But what Swamiji is talking about when it comes to Samarpan Meditation is something completely different, and people don't know that.

No one knows what meditation really is.

No one knows what meditation really is.

For a traumatized person, and I know what you're talking about because I belong to this category myself, what is normally called meditation is potentially dangerous because any meditation is potentially dangerous, because any meditation – what people call meditation, not what I call meditation – is more or less subtly targeted, more or less strongly imaginative, and that is harmful even for people who are not traumatized. All that is harmful.

It's just that these meditations are less harmful than the normal everyday life most people live, but it has nothing to do with true meditation. Samarpan Meditation is completely different. You don't want anything. You meditate without a goal. I say in every video, in every conversation with you, that I am so practical... You don't have any ideas. You don't wait for a certain feeling, you don't want to become blissful or still or anything. The only thing you do is focus your attention on a very mundane place, up here, on the top of your head.

Nothing spiritual. You don't even need to know what this place is called, nor do you need to know why you are focusing your attention there. None of that matters at all. This is a very simple, practical exercise to park my attention above the thoughts for half an hour. When you're in the crown chakra with your attention, you can't think. You immediately think again, but then you're no longer there, and that's a nice game, but without a goal. It's almost like finding a haven of peace for the first time.

And especially for traumatized people... they don't have it. They don't have that haven of peace, and they don't want to dig around and dig something out or anything like that. And that's where you can rest for the first time. And as I said, it's not for everyone. I'm not saying that to convince anyone. I just want to address this misconception that most people think they know what I'm talking about when I talk about meditation, but this meditation is different from all the others.

When you're in the crown chakra with your attention, you can't think.

You immediately think again, but then you're no longer there, and that's a nice game, but without a goal.

It's almost like finding a haven of peace for the first time.

Maybe it is also beneficial for traumatized people, but I would like to say: every person has to listen to their own impulses. There are people with trauma, like me... I've heard of this meditation, and I was on it: "That's it for me." If you, who are listening to our conversation right now, are a traumatized person and hear about it and realize: "No, not interested", then listen to that.

The video, this conversation, is called: Putting God first. This is God saying: "Yes, Mikael, he keeps talking about this meditation, but I don't feel any attraction at all." This is God saying: "No, Dear, it's not for you." And that's the most important thing.

[Mona:] Exactly; the wisdom of God is always present and to be trusted.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, and each person receives it individually. What is right for me right now is not right for you right now, and perhaps not for someone else either.

[Mona:] Yes, and yet if it's not right for me now, I may feel drawn to it in three months' time. I've felt that way about other things too, thinking: "Isn't this what he said back then", and now I can suddenly empathize with it, and now it suddenly has its justification and validity for me... to feel that. It's always right now that we feel it. Only now.

What is it like to be close to God?

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, it's fantastic, it's really fantastic. And that's the one thing I always want to say to people. All the rest... I talk about my life, of course, simply to give people inspiration. But the one thing I advise is: listen to God, to the God inside you. And no one else can tell me whether that's true or not, because other people get different impulses from God than I do. That's why it always feels wrong. Then there are people who talk about their impulses very convincingly and very eloquently.

The one thing I advise is: listen to God, to the God inside you.

And no one else can tell me whether that's true or not, because other people get different impulses from God than I do.

That's why it always feels wrong.

Then you think: "Yes, but I feel completely different, I must be wrong". But that's not the case. I always try to manage this balancing act... Of course I talk about my life, but what I actually want to talk about is how I've progressed along this path. And that is, and I have just said this again and again in detail in our conversation, that I have always followed this voice of God within me, which has led me to the most impossible things. I think that's how everyone feels. Everyone thinks: "What I feel and what I want right now is wrong." But that's God.

I think that's how everyone feels.
Everyone thinks: "What I feel and what I want right now is wrong."

But that's God.

[Mona:] Exactly. And then, at some point, this feeling of being lost stops: when you realize that this is God. If God is with me, I'm not lost. I am lost if I attach more importance to the outside than to God within me. Then I am lost to God. That is actually very logical. It really takes courage to listen to this voice and trust it.

[Dhyan Mikael:] And even more than that... I can feel very lost, still, I can feel very wrong, still. That's a favorite feeling of mine. But in feeling wrong I know: "It's okay". For me, it's not that these feelings are going away.

These human feelings are no longer as dominant as they used to be, no longer here as often as they used to be, but every now and then they come knocking and check whether they are still welcome. And when they are here, I still know... I feel really wrong or really lost, and yet I haven't forgotten: "Yes, it's okay." That's what I think you mean: that it's always there.

[Mona:] Exactly. I know it too. I know it too. And now I also know: yes, I can't feel God at the moment. I can often feel it, and then there are moments, then it's gone, then I can't create it either. That's just the way it is.

[Dhyan Mikael:] I feel lost: that is God. I prefer to feel God when I feel wide and spiritual. I like that God better. But the side of God that feels lost, people don't like that. But that is God too. Then people come: "But I don't feel so great and connected...." That's why I often find it unhelpful... You can't pin God down to certain sensitivities or feelings. In despair, in being lost, God is so close.

I feel lost: that is God.

I prefer to feel God when I feel wide and spiritual. I like that God better. But the side of God that feels lost, people don't like that.

But that is God too.

Sadness... nowhere is God closer than in sadness.

You can't pin God down to certain sensitivities or feelings.

In despair, in being lost, God is so close.

Sadness... nowhere is God closer than in sadness.

[Mona:] Yes, of course!

[Dhyan Mikael:] The cloak of sadness is God's favorite cloak.

[Mona:] He points it out to us.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, again and again. Yeah, but you know, you chose the topic: "How do you put God first?" We believe there are some things that are Divine and others that are not. We believe that if I feel desperate and lost, then I am far from God. That's not true. I have the idea of how it would be if I were close to God. But this imagination has nothing to do with reality. And we can't imagine that the way it is for me right now is the way God is. That's right, right now; right now. We always think: "But if it were God, then I would feel differently right now." That's just not true.

We believe that if I feel desperate and lost, then I am far from God. That's not true.

I have the idea of how it would be if I were close to God. But this has nothing to do with reality. And we can't imagine that the way it is for me right now is the way God is.

[Mona:] Yes, so that God, as we have already indicated in between, actually always comes first.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, and we just have to say 'yes' to it.

[Mona:] Yes, exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] It's almost like a game of hide and seek. God disguises himself as sadness and says: "Let's see if you can find me here." But we don't look there. We don't look there. And then he disguises himself in the lostness, and even in the darkness he quite likes to hide. People are always looking for him in an imaginary light, but God hides there, in how it is for you right now.

It's almost like a game of hide and seek. God disguises himself as sadness and says: "Let's see if you can find me here." But we don't look there.

People are always looking for him in an imaginary light, but God hides there, in how it is for you right now.

[Mona:] He is never far.

[Dhyan Mikael:] He is never far. And we can't imagine it.

[Mona:] Yes. It feels round and coherent to me right now. For you too, Mikael?

[Dhyan Mikael:] What a conversation! Wow! It feels like a rollercoaster ride that we've been on here. Unbelievable!

[Mona:] A rollercoaster with God.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, really. The topics you come up with are really great.

[Mona:] Yes, God too, yes. Thank you, Mikael.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Ah, thank you Mona, what a pleasure. Thank you.