What
does change?

[Mona:] Hello dear Mikael.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Hello dear Mona, hello to you.

[Mona:] I'm delighted that you're here and that we're having a conversation. You've given me the freedom of choice again, and my topic is very, very much Heaven. Last time, we talked about Heaven, and I realize that I would like go deeper on this transformation that happens to people when they walk this path; this connection to Heaven.

I realize that we as humanity have not yet sufficiently realized Heaven, and that we can't really feel what it means. And perhaps we can talk a little bit about how this path has brought about change in your life; how your life has changed – and also mine – and where there may also be pitfalls. So, I'm interested in the transformation that occurs in us in a very natural way through this connection, which you have, which I also have.

What really happens remains hidden from us

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[Dhyan Mikael:] What a topic, a very big topic. Yes, with pleasure. I think it's great, these surprise topics, because if I don't know what it's going to be about beforehand, then what happens now is really spontaneous and authentic, and I just really like that.

Yes, it's a big topic and you can look at it from different angles. I would start with the following, from my experience, that what really happens in what you call transformation, and all these changes in life... We will certainly talk about a lot of things tonight, I'm sure, but I have to say: What really happens remains hidden from us.

I also have to say: what is really happening to me, to the world, we can't even comprehend yet; so not only the people who are just starting out, but also the people who are in the middle of it, or at the end, or wherever. All we can really do is marvel, all the time. Every day I am amazed anew at what is now possible again and what is now changing again.

What really happens remains hidden from us.

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It's not like a math book that you read through and then understand a few basic things and then you know how math works, but... This may sound a bit strange, but I have the feeling that I know less and less about what this is all about. Maybe you're laughing now, because I spend hours making videos about it and say a lot about it, but actually you know less and less, and the amazement becomes more and more, and as a result, your openness to what you don't know becomes greater and greater. I would like to compare it to when you are in love; when you fall in love with another person.

In the beginning, you don't know the other person. Osho, an Indian Guru who was very well known in the West, once said: "In the other person we love, we experience, God: the great unknown." When we fall in love, when we get to know the other person, then we know nothing about the person, and he is so beautiful and so unfathomable, and we are amazed the whole time. And then it all evaporates, because after a few months or a few years we think we know the other person, which of course isn't true at all; but we have formed our own image of the other person.

As a result, the amazement fades. We can no longer perceive the beauty and the infinity and all the things we cannot see and know, and then it becomes boring. But that's how I feel on this spiritual path: I can only marvel. I can't say that I know more or anything like that. That's what comes to my mind spontaneously when we talk about this path, about what's changing with this transformation.

We are the seed for a huge tree

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Swamiji, my Indian Guru, who brings the Samarpan Meditation that I like to talk about so much, took the image of a seed. We are a seed. We are the seed for a huge tree, and for this seed to become the tree, we must die. The seed dies. The seed, when it begins to germinate, must say 'yes' to its own death, and the seed does not know that it is not dying at all. It does not know that it is unfolding to incredible greatness.

For the seed deep down there in the dark earth, it really is a death. It has to say: "Okay, I'm dissolving now." And it doesn't know anything about what's coming. And that's how we are. That's the one thing that makes this path so special and also difficult for some people: you can't know anything about it, and yet, you have to or still want to say 'yes' with all your heart, even though you know nothing about it at all.

We are a seed.

We are the seed for a huge tree, and for this seed to become the tree, we must die.
The seed dies.

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[Mona:] Yes, and exactly what you describe about the seed is precisely the transformation that takes place, and I liked what you said about falling in love. The way I experience it, this glow of being in love doesn't stop. I think that's the beauty of this path. That is always being in love with the new things that appear; always being delighted anew, being enthusiastic anew.

And yes, the further we get, the less we know, and we no longer have the need to know anything, because knowledge, as you have also described with love, is almost fatal for this exhilarating feeling of joy and love. And yet a great deal happens to us along the way; this process of dying and at the same time the birth of the new. There are a lot of changes, some of which feel horrible and yet lead to an ever more beautiful state. At least that's how I experience it.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Well, that often puts people off when they hear: it can also be very horrible.

It's like this: what you discover on this path, which is called the spiritual path... there is something very subtle; something incredibly quiet inside you.

The way there... The only thing that is necessary for this is that you become more sensitive. You become more and more quiet inside, and to the extent that you become more quiet and more sensitive, you can feel this subtlety – that which is the only real thing, which you then discover – more and more. But the more sensitive we become, the more we feel. We feel everything. Normally, we humans are used to a very loud world. We know nothing but distraction all day long. We do this out of habit, but also to distract ourselves from all the things that we really don't want to or can't feel.

There are many people who have things inside them that they can't yet feel. And then, when I get onto the spiritual path and start to meditate or whatever, for you it was different, then, you gradually become more sensitive, more perceptive, and then you start to feel all these things. And that's the only scary thing about it: that you then start to feel things that you're not familiar with. None of this is really terrible. Even the biggest trauma isn't actually terrible, but we don't know that and we have to face it, so to speak. That's the only difficulty.

What there is to feel and experience is all okay, but we have incredible resistance to it. That is the difficulty on this path, nothing else. There is no actual difficulty. It's not like there's some incredibly difficult math problem to be afraid of. It's just that we begin to perceive things in ourselves that are unknown to us and that we are firmly convinced are unmanageable for us. And very, very slowly, you then find out that all of this is not true, but it just takes a while.

The way there...

The only thing that is necessary for this is that you become more sensitive.

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[Mona:] Yes, especially at the beginning of this path, when you come across traumas and things like that, you are still very strongly identified with yourself and your history. Your mind is still active, which then constantly tells you the same horrific stories over and over again, and at first you believe it all.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, you don't know anything else. You believe it all.

[Mona:] You are exposed to great pain, great suffering, and at the beginning you still don't realize that all of this is dissolving and that it is showing itself so that it can redeem itself, so that we can find more and more of this beautiful divine truth. And that is a process to get there, and it can... So for me, because I was very clueless at the beginning and didn't necessarily have the best companions who already knew this... you can be stuck in it for a long time, depending on what has happened in your life.

You don't have to do it alone

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[Dhyan Mikael:] I also know people who have very good companions, but sometimes it takes a while. But we have time. This whole life is exactly for that. That's why... you were just talking about companions. Many people don't know what, for example, a spiritual Master or a Guru is supposed to do; what the task of such mediums is.

And basically it's exactly what you just said: these are people who are already there and who know – who know from their own experience, and that's why it has such power – that it's all good and that everything is simple. And that gives you... you borrow this confidence, so to speak – it happens automatically – and then, you suddenly have the courage to do things, you are carried through things that you couldn't handle so easily on your own.

I remember myself... of course, like so many people, I experienced my trauma in this life, and when it boiled up for me at some point... that was actually the beginning of my spiritual path back then, and I was lucky enough to have this... I had a therapist at the time, and he was... and I was so lucky... he had arrived, through and through. He was an enlightened person, a modest, unassuming person, but he lived in Heaven. He had been with a Guru for decades and was such a good therapist.

And when I discovered my trauma and unpacked it... he wasn't touched by it at all. It wasn't a big deal for him at all. He was just completely genuine in this knowledge that it was all okay; that there was no problem at all. And of course he would never have been able to say something like that to me, but his energy encouraged me so much and opened me up to what I had to feel and process and love and accept inside me, and then that was such a support.

You don't have to do it alone. There are people who are pushed into it all by themselves. If I understand your story correctly, that was the case for you, and for me it was completely different, although I never sought the support of others. I also never looked for a spiritual Master and never looked for a Guru, and I have both today. And that has made it so much easier for me. But I didn't go looking for it. It just happened that way.

[Mona:] I can perhaps pass on one rule – and I think you will confirm this – that even if it feels terrible at times, there is only ever so much we can bear. I've had phases where I thought it wouldn't work at all, but it does. The brilliant guidance is there. It can be tough at times, but it's always... We survive it. So, it's always bearable. It's not more than we can carry.

We don't need to be afraid

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[Dhyan Mikael:] I can confirm that. Everything we encounter, we can say 'yes' to. And we don't need to be afraid. There are people who are broken by it, but they are broken by their fear of it and not by what is coming. They have the firm belief that it will kill me, and then it is difficult. But if a person is lucky enough to really be able to say 'yes', then they are carried through it. That's incredible. And I can fully confirm what you say.

Everything we encounter, we can say 'yes' to.

And we don't need to be afraid.

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[Mona:] And you don't realize it in the moment, but a certain amount of breaking is sometimes necessary, so that the higher can show itself. That's what I can say about myself. Only then did this dimension, this incredible dimension, really open up. You might not think that at the time, but actually, I realize that now in our conversation, it's important for viewers and listeners to get the message across: even when there are tough situations, to have the confidence to go through them.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, and: don't have any concepts. Everyone feels for themselves what's going on right now. Some people want to be alone, other people want to seek help, some want to start therapy. There is nothing unspiritual.

I always encourage people to follow their own feelings. Sometimes you are desperate and want help, and then you seek help. Or you want to distract yourself. Okay, then you just distract yourself. There's nothing you have to do and other things you're not allowed to do.

And if you do that... if you just authentically do what you feel like doing right now with these difficult things, then nothing can really go wrong, even if it feels really awful, just like you say. But that's exactly what breaks down; that's what feels so painful: we have so many beliefs, we believe so many things, that we really don't know anything about. And every time I let go of such a belief, a part of me dies.

This is called 'ego': the idea I have of myself, and the idea I have of the world, and of other people. And more and more I realize that none of this is actually true. Then there's less and less left of me, and in the end, I don't know anything anymore. Then it's as if there's nothing left of myself. That's the only pain. And once you get used to it, it's actually quite easy. It's very strange for some people at first, that's true.

Every time I let go of such a belief, a part of me dies.

This is called 'ego':
the idea I have of myself, and the idea I have of the world, and of other people.

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[Mona:] And even when there's nothing left of us – which is what some people think somehow: that's not possible – what we then feel is this emotion from the deeper, from the essence, from the more subtle. And you also emphasized so beautifully how important it is to find your own path: what you make use of or whether you remain alone. So, for me, it was also about actually learning to trust myself: to trust that. Even if that feels strange: to trust what I feel like from the inside.

Falling in love with something impossible

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. And that's why having a Master or a Guru is such a key for some people. You have to imagine it like this... it didn't happen to you, but it happened to me twice. And it's as if you fall in love with something completely impossible, but you have no choice. You experience saying 'yes' to something you can't understand; something that feels completely wrong and crazy. I mean, having a Master or a Guru is really like being burned, that's how it feels sometimes. You give yourself up completely, but you can't help it.

The Guru doesn't want you to give yourself up... that sounds so strange again, but that's how it feels inside. It all happens inside you. It's like an automatic help in this process of letting go and surrendering. And then you have this God in front of you, that's what it feels like... You know, we are Christians, most of us. We at least grew up Christian, in a Christian environment, and then you like to imagine: "Yeah, Jesus, if he was here, that would be cool, I'd follow him."

But then you know someone who has a Guru, and then you think they're crazy; they're out of their mind. That is what people think, and that's what you think of yourself. You have such a romantic idea of Jesus, for example, or: "Yes, if Buddha were there"..., but when it really happens to you, or when you experience people to whom this happens, then it feels wrong and weird and completely crazy.

[Mona:] Yes, but what you described... basically it happened to me too, except I didn't experience it as a living person, but: at the moment when my husband died, I encountered it, and I fell in love with it, just as you say. And this memory was so strong; it was always there as a reference. And of course my mind also said: "You're completely crazy to base your life on this memory. How does something like that work?" But that's exactly... It's not about this person, even if it is easier, of course. You have a person in embodiment as a Guru. It's about this power.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Exactly, and every true Guru says, "I'm only here until you become your own Guru"; until that in you that you're talking about, Mona, until you can feel that yourself.

[Mona:] Exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] And until you realize: "Ah, that's my compass!" And then you don't need the Guru out there anymore. He stays there anyway, he has no problem with it at all; but then you know what he's been talking about all this time. And you've done it on your own, and there are some people who have to do it on their own. And there are some people who do it with someone else, like me, for example. It's all the same thing.

What has fallen away is no longer remembered

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[Mona:] What I would like to work out a little more now: what has changed in your life as a result? Before, after... Well, you've been walking this path for a long time now, and so have I, we've both been walking it for a long time, you for much longer. What has changed? What has shifted?

[Dhyan Mikael:] It's such a good question and so difficult to answer. I would like to say two things about it. One is: I increasingly have the feeling that nothing has changed at all. You know, that's quite funny. That, what has changed... I would put it this way: everything that has fallen away is gone. You can't remember that anymore. Or you don't normally remember it anymore; only from time to time, as if it had slipped out of your field of vision.

You don't remember that anymore. And what remains, the real thing, has always been there. That's nothing new. I used to know nothing about it, and it's becoming more and more so, but it's nothing new, it's old, and I feel more and more as if nothing has changed at all; as if I'm only ever more like I actually am. That's why it's so hard to say anything concrete about it.

[Mona:] So maybe with me, because it happened so suddenly, it's a bit more tangible. I also have the impression that the essentials haven't changed. I now remember more and more: "Yes, this has always been there; I already know it." But for me, I would say that life has actually become more essential. You also say that many things have fallen away.

For me, it's as if I had a lot of clothes that I had to take care of, and in the truest sense of the word: it was a lot of work, requiring a lot of energy... And suddenly I realize: I don't need them all; as if I... Yesterday I thought: as if I had a heavy jacket on, with lots of weights in it, and they're being taken out bit by bit, these weights, and it feels lighter.

So, a lot of uninteresting things that were important to me, where I also attached importance to the fact that it had to be like this and this and this... Suddenly that's no longer there, just like you say. I think that's a very important change.

It's like a reversal

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[Dhyan Mikael:] I would love to say more about it.

It's like turning back. You live your whole life looking outwards, and by 'outwards' I mean: including this body. You look at the world outside, at other people, at the weather, at this body, how it's doing, at my feelings, at what I want and what I don't want, at my dreams, at my goals. That's all 'outside' for me, and we don't usually know anything else. And we only know people who do the same; that's completely normal. We don't know anything else at all, we don't know anything else. So, when someone talks about God or 'inside' or something, we have no idea what they're talking about.

And then something like a reversal happens, and I mean it quite literally and practically: it's like turning around and suddenly looking in the opposite direction, namely: inwards. And everything that we have been looking at so far is still there, but we are no longer looking at it.

We are now looking at something new that we cannot see and that we do not know, but we look in this direction, and from there, we discover something new. And the old, which we no longer look at, is still there, and it is still beautiful, but we are no longer interested in it. I would say: Life doesn't change, but the experience changes completely.

Life doesn't change, but the experience changes completely.

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[Mona:] Exactly, yes, that's the point, exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] And that's why people on the outside don't recognize it. The life of a person who lives in Heaven and who is happy through and through doesn't look any different from the outside than that of someone else. There was a very great Zen Master, who was once asked by his disciple: "Master, tell me, what was your life like before enlightenment?" The Zen Master said: "Well, I chopped wood, fetched water from the well." "Yes, and then, afterwards?" "I chop wood; I fetch water from the well."

Nothing that you could see changes, but the experience of this person inside is completely different, and you can feel it. The person does not look special. He may even look particularly ordinary, but when you get close to him, you sense that something is fundamentally different here. But you don't know what it is. And in Christianity there is the word 'repent', the English word 'repent'. This is of course, like everything in Christianity, misunderstood, because the people who use these words don't know what a Jesus, who coined the words, was talking about.

They have tried to understand the words with their view of life, but this view of life is not correct. The word 'repent' means 'to turn back': to look in the right direction, namely: inwards. Jesus always said: "Look to God! Put God first. Look to God and not to the world, and then, everything will change for you," he said. And he just used words that we don't understand at all today, but they mean exactly the same thing: "Turn around; look inside." And then the world is the same as before: you're still fetching water, you're still chopping wood, but you're in Heaven.

[Mona:] I also find it a bit misleading when a Zen Master is quoted. He says he chopped wood before and chopped wood after. But for me, I can say that it didn't make me happy beforehand, and afterwards – I don't chop wood, but in a figurative sense – I can have fits of happiness because the experience is completely different; because the divine can be perceived and felt in everything.

It is as if this life, which was previously gray and greyish, suddenly becomes colorful and lively. And there is a vibration in life; in the simplest things. And that's why such people are often not conspicuous in fact, because they don't dress up or anything. They have no interest in getting carried away with it, because the real thing takes place in a completely different way.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, and the answer from such a Zen Master is not for lazy people.

[Mona:] Yes, exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Someone who asks out of curiosity is turned off by such an answer, and that is intentional. But the answer is actually brilliant, because it says: " You have to look closer. I can't tell you in words, but if you look very closely, and even more closely and even more closely, then you start to suspect something. The closer you get and the closer you look, the more you yourself begin to sense it, and then you experience the answer." He can't tell you. Basically, he says: look closely.

You have to look closer.

I can't tell you in words, but if you look very closely, and even more closely and even more closely, then you start to suspect something.

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Everyone has to do it themselves. It's not something that somebody else can do for you.

[Mona:] Yes, because this subtlety can only be perceived individually. We, too, can now tell people about it, so that when they experience something like this, they might also feel it: "Ah, yes, that's what they meant", but you can't transfer or give this feeling to anyone. It develops deeply within each individual. And for me at least it was like this: as long as there was a lot of darkness and unresolved issues and traumas, these subtle senses were not so capable of developing. The other things had to be healed and redeemed first.

Becoming more sensitive

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. It actually starts like this: we are happy, we know nothing of our traumas, we know nothing of our pain and all these things. We are happy, we enjoy our lives. And then we start to become more sensitive – that's why we're in this world – because our goal is to discover our soul, to go to Heaven, to discover God... call it what you want, it's all the same.

That means: our path begins, we become more sensitive, and then we discover these things; then we suddenly come across the trauma. Sensitive people, especially sensitive people, have to deal with it, and that's a good thing. And once it has been digested, we can become a bit more sensitive again. Then we can perceive new things again. Swamiji, my Guru, says: "It is quite good and important that the path goes slowly."

People are just impatient, but it is good when the path is a slow one. Because whenever we have become a little bit more sensitive, we can feel more because of it, and we have to digest that. We have to learn that. It's nothing difficult; it's nothing to be afraid of. It's a completely natural process. And that's why it simply takes a few years, and then everything is fine.

[Mona:] And above all, it's not just our own things that we have to digest, but we also see more. We then see in the entire environment, in the collective, what we have redeemed, recognized, seen in ourselves; we then also see that all around us. And that also takes time until we learn how to deal with it.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Well, there are various possibilities. The option that I have learned is: not to look. That's what we do: we look outwards all the time; we look at the darkness and the pain of the world. The only thing we don't do is look at our own pain. And once we start doing that and lose the fear of it, we stop looking out there. Then there is such a person in the world, where perhaps everyone else is convinced that they are living in hell.

But for that person, it is no longer hell. All he does then, and what you do, is: to invite people to discover the same thing. That's why I make videos. I can't take people's path away from them. I can't take this self-discovery and experience away from people, I don't want to. But I can encourage people to do it and say: this path is sustainable; it's real; it's very practical; it's for very normal people.

And that's why we talk to each other: so that other people can hear it. And you're right: you can't explain anything, really, but then, sometimes, people get a feeling for it: "Oh, wow, what I feel there is obviously real after all! And what I'm guessing seems to be real, and it's obviously possible." And I want to convey this feeling. And if I succeed, then I'm really happy.

We look outwards all the time; we look at the darkness and the pain of the world.

The only thing we don't do is look at our own pain.

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[Mona:] Exactly. I've just been reminded that when this subtle, beautiful feeling was there, my ego had reservations and tried to prevent it and dissuade me from it. And that's another reason why it's important that we have these conversations.

Because in the beginning, for me at least, it took some getting used to: leaving this familiar, supposed security for this very, very beautiful feeling, but so unknown and also not yet knowing: how do I move with it? And everyone else feels differently; and can I even cope in this world? So, I had a lot of doubts, and it's the only thing that's sustainable, as you say.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Some very famous poet or philosopher... I don't know who it was, of course, but he said: "We prefer the known hell to the unknown Heaven." What we know – no matter how terrible –, we hold on to that. Everyone knows that about relationships. But that's how it fundamentally is in life too: letting go of the familiar is the only difficult part of the whole story.

What we know
– no matter how terrible –,
we hold on to that.

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[Mona:] And I would even say... For me, it was almost giving myself permission to this Heaven, to this happiness. We are so used to or programmed to be happy only if I do a lot first and achieve this and that goal. So, moving around in the new world is so completely different that it can be very, very irritating.

[Dhyan Mikael:] You have to let go of any idea you have of happiness. We don't know what we're talking about at all. I mean, I talk about happiness, but the happiness I mean is something very subtle, which has nothing to do with moments of happiness in normal life. It's something completely different, but you have to discover it for yourself; you can't really say much about it.

You have to let go of any idea you have of happiness.

We don't know what we're talking about at all.

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[Mona:] And yet it is important to at least address it, because this subtlety is so easily overlooked in this world as we have it. And to be attentive and perhaps also to sense that there was a moment when something completely new emerged, very subtly, and I'm going to look into it... So, it was important for me to recognize and appreciate these moments and to give them the chance to be there through silence or meditation or whatever.

[Dhyan Mikael:] You know, that's quite funny. We talk about the fact that everything is unknown and that you can also encourage people.

Somehow, everyone has a compass built into them. Somehow everyone suspects the truth. That's why I can say something about it at all. Then someone hears it... I can't explain it, but someone hears it and immediately knows: "Ah, that's true." And they only know that because... not because I'm talking so cleverly; I can't explain it... but because you actually know it yourself.

But normally, what we feel inside us is the very last thing we would trust. Any idiot out there, any respected wise-cracking person or a book author or any celebrity or actor or politician or lover... no matter how crazy, we believe everything we are told. But what we feel ourselves, that's the last thing we would believe – and that's the only thing we have to listen to. And that's just not so easy.

What we feel ourselves, that's the last thing we would believe – and that's the only thing we have to listen to.

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[Mona:] And then we get to the point where we feel a certainty in there. And the is actually a reminder. We know that. We know it deeply, and that's why we can then also gain confidence in it at some point, and it then becomes stronger. But in the beginning, it really is exactly as you say. It's the last thing we would trust.

[Dhyan Mikael:] But once you start to trust it a little, then you gain experience with it, and then it gets stronger and stronger. And when you... you are also concerned with practical aspects of this path... once you've experienced it for a few years, then, at some point, you no longer question it. It's still unfamiliar and you still feel wrong, but you know: this is the way.

I said in a video yesterday: "Being true to yourself... listening to what you feel inside yourself always feels wrong." I don't know why, but it just does. But after a while you get used to being wrong. You still feel wrong, but somehow you know: "That's okay, and I'm just like this, and I can't help it."

[Mona:] And then there was a point for me where I felt: I can't be unfaithful to that, and also the realization: also not to the Highest. I cannot be unfaithful to God, or the Highest, or whatever you want to call it... whatever the cost. And it is also the way that makes me happy. But then I felt: that's like betraying the highest. So, I reached the point where it was no longer possible. That was no longer possible and I could no longer believe anything else.

When interest in the outside world wanes

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, what you say is true. I like to express it differently because it's too abstract for me. I would put it like this: I'm no longer interested in the other things. That is a very specific experience. You say: I can no longer be unfaithful to the highest, you said. For me it is like this: if I am true to myself, to myself, then I simply want to look at what is inside me. In reality, I'm no longer interested in other things. And it's a question of being true to yourself.

And of course you're right: more and more you realize that there is no difference between this 'self', this soul, and God, but I like to express it as tangibly as possible and as unabstractly as possible, because we have too many of these abstract expressions that are full of meaning for the people who experience it – but for the people who don't experience it themselves, they are empty. But being true to yourself, even if you feel wrong... then you get closer and closer to God. That's exactly how it is, of course.

[Mona:] Yes, what you say is helpful, because otherwise, as long as you can't feel it yet, it can very quickly become a projection. And that's what we've had in the church all this time... [Dhyan Mikael:] All the time, yes... [Mona:] ...and that doesn't help. But another question is arising in me right now, a practical one, and that is when you say: I'm not so interested in the outside anymore – I feel the same way about it. Now, there are people who live in a family where every single person has a different pace.

There may be one person who goes this way, but the family environment does not have this understanding and does not share it. They can hardly say: "I'm not interested in what you're doing and you're all still in your imaginations" or something like that. I think you have an environment where this is not the case, but what would you say to such a person, such people,? How do they deal with it? Because my feeling is, at least that's how I try to show love and forbearance to all people wherever they are.

[Dhyan Mikael:] That's a great question, because a lot of people struggle with it.

[Mona:] Yes.

Closer to oneself, and therefore, to the world

Link to topic in video at 47m56s

[Dhyan Mikael:] I think, a lot of things are misunderstood.

And it's especially a problem at the beginning of the path. At the beginning of the path, you really still feel totally insecure and completely wrong, even if you might not be able to express it that way yet. And then you want recognition from others that what you are doing is okay, and of course you don't get it. And at the same time, you judge others who are not going through what you have just discovered and what you think is great. And that naturally makes living together very unpleasant.

What happens there is an internal matter, and it's nobody's business. When I say, "I'm no longer interested in what's going on out there", it doesn't mean at all that that I would now be careless as far as practical life is concerned, or that I would display an arrogant attitude of turning away from others. The opposite is the case: because I am closer to myself... because I feel so much more what is here, inside me, I perceive my surroundings much more directly. I am much more here than I used to be.

And because I'm no longer looking for anything out there – that's what I mean by: I don't care – I'm no longer dependent on finding my happiness out there, because I now know where I can find it. And if I find what I really need inside myself, then I'm free out there. I no longer expect anything, simply because I no longer need it. Not because I have become holy, but because I have found what I need. This is a very practical matter, and then, the practical life out there becomes increasingly uncomplicated.

And then I live my life, and I once put it like this: I have the feeling that I could actually live with anyone now, no matter what they're like, because I don't want anything anymore from that person. Then, you can get along with almost anyone. I still have a great wife, with whom it's really very easy, but probably also because other people wouldn't be able to put up with me. But... you're right. You said: that can really be misunderstood.

I no longer expect anything, simply because I no longer need it.

Not because I have become holy, but because I have found what I need.

Link to quote in video at 50m20s

We always think that if I care incredibly much about the outside world, about my partner, about all these people, then that's good. But that's the burden. If I'm just happy and if I can say to my partner: I don't need anything from you... I don't tell her of course, but if that's the inner feeling... then I can love! Then I can enjoy! Then I can be full of joy, no matter how I feel right now, or no matter what her mood is. Then everything is uncomplicated. That is perhaps a paradox. You can see that in these saints.

These saints, like Jesus, for example, or a Guru like that, have found God within themselves, they don't need anything anymore from you. They are no longer interested in the world at all – and these are the ones who give the world the feeling that they love the world and look at everything in the world with love and infinite kindness. And that is because they have found within themselves what every person truly seeks and needs. And then, there is nothing left but love. Yes, it's as simple as that.

[Mona:] Yes, and because they recognize the other person from this view and their own path, where they are, all judgement ceases, regardless of whether a person is now in the distraction or is committed to the Guru... I sometimes see this with Gurus, they get gifts, I think they don't need them and they don't want it... and yet, they accept them with love because everything is understood; because the intention is also understood, and no longer only that what is happening on the surface.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, and he doesn't need, she doesn't need anything anymore from the others. We really have a sick idea of love. We tell the other person: "I need you!" That is the highest vow of love. Yet this is the one thing that makes love impossible. And we can't even imagine what it would be like if I no longer needed anything from the world.

We really have a sick idea of love.

We tell the other person:
"I need you!"
That is the highest vow of love.

Yet this is the one thing that makes love impossible.

Link to quote in video at 53m36s

We really believe that would mean we reject the world and no longer want to know anything about the world. The opposite is the case. That what I don't need, that I cherish; that I love. And that's something everyone has to discover for themselves. And then, everything becomes beautiful; then, the world becomes beautiful, and people become beautiful, and even your own partner becomes beautiful – all together.

That what I don't need, that I cherish; that I love.

And that's something everyone has to discover for themselves.

Link to quote in video at 54m13s

[Mona:] Yes, and especially such sensitive people who feel, for example, that their partner is in a bad mood... If the old idea of love is there, then I'm forced to do something to make him feel better or something. But knowing: yes, he's in a bad mood right now, but he doesn't need anything from me because I can't solve it either; because it's his. That allows us to interact so beautifully and freely.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. You know, it's like that: We want to help the other person, but not because we love them so much, but because we can't stand it when they feel bad.

But when I'm at peace with my feelings... if I am at peace with how it feels for me when this person is having such a hard time right now, then I can be relaxed about it; then I can leave this person as they are; love them like this, even if they are difficult for me right now; even if they are difficult for themselves right now. And then it all becomes uncomplicated. That's when possibilities arise; that's when healing happens.

We want to help the other person, but not because we love them so much, but because we can't stand it when they feel bad.

Link to quote in video at 55m03s

[Mona:] Because then, this person who is carrying such a burden realizes: I am free, I now have the space for myself. There is not someone else who is suffering under my burden. It's something completely different then, yes.

It's only your own experience that counts

Link to topic in video at 56m11s

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, it's easy, and sometimes someone who isn't there yet can't imagine it at all. It sounds unloving.

But so much of what we talk about today you have to discover for yourself. I remember something... I think I mentioned this once before in one of our wonderful conversations. My Master once gave me an advice a long time ago, very early on... I was talking to him about relationships and what that was like for me. And me, I was really proud of how much I loved my girlfriend and how well I could feel how she was doing; and I always cared about how she was doing and was completely with her with my care. He said: "Don't do that, Mikael!" He said: "Don't look at how she's doing!"

He said: "Look at yourself!" And I thought back then, and that was maybe twenty-two years ago now, that he said that now, or twenty-three, quite at the beginning of our time... I honestly thought: he's not right. I thought: he's crazy. That went against everything which I was totally convinced of. I loved him; he was my Master; but I thought, I even 'knew': that wasn't right. And it took ten years, and ten years later I experienced it myself what it's like when I look at myself, only at myself and no longer at the other person.

Then, I suddenly discovered where love really comes from; in which direction love really flows; what really happens there. And I still remember... I had an experience with a woman back then where I really experienced this for the first time, and I thought: "That's what he was talking about back then! Of course! Of course he was right." And sometimes it takes a few years until you experience it yourself, and then you know: "Oh, that's what they were talking about", and that's what Jesus was talking about, or my Master. Only your own experience counts; only that is of any use.

[Mona:] It is important to have heard this once, because I know from myself that it fluctuates so much at the beginning, this feeling. Then I felt it once, and then the other one came up again: "But I can't leave him alone there now", or: "That's unloving", or something like that. So, it switches back and forth at the beginning, until you only feel what is true. The real thing has the greater power. Even if it takes ten years – but it has the greater power. That's also the fantastic thing. The true prevails... it has the greater power.

"Don't look at the darkness of the world"

Link to topic in video at 59m19s

[Dhyan Mikael:] And my Master, Soham, didn't care that I didn't believe him. He had no problem with it. But it still had an effect, very gradually. There's something else that most people find equally incomprehensible: We are so convinced that we have to take care of all the world's problems and that we have to solve them. And we don't understand that this attitude is the source of the problems. We look at the world.

We want to straighten out the world, so that the world will be better for me, and that always makes things worse. That is the cause of the problems, and that is why a Guru like Swamiji says: "Don't look at the world; don't look at the darkness in the world." He literally says: "Don't look how far the darkness stretches." He says: you will not find the end of the darkness. He says: the only thing you must and can do is: light your own lamp. Look within. Clean up there.

Start loving yourself. Then, your little world will become bright, and this little bright world, which is the only thing you can influence, will make you happy. Then you live in the light. You live in Heaven. That's what we see in Jesus. We feel this luminosity, and it changes the world. Jesus didn't care how dark the world was. His disciples... Judas, he was intellectual, he wanted something to be done against the Romans and for oppression to be fought and that sort of thing.

Jesus didn't want to hear about it; he wasn't interested. He only looked inwards, and that made the world a brighter place. That is contagious, and it makes the world brighter – and only this. But that is also something that the masters and the saints say, but which a church and every normal person cannot imagine. It goes against everything we can imagine.

We are so convinced that we have to take care of all the world's problems and that we have to solve them.

And we don't understand that this attitude is the source of the problems.

Link to quote in video at 59m32s

[Mona:] And yet... what you say is totally important, and yet I can see that many people who are still active in this old form, for instance communities that want to make the world a better place, they are currently at a point where they are also becoming very thoughtful; where they realize: it doesn't work like this; where they are looking for new ways.

Every now and then I am asked about such groups and have conversations where they realize that the only way forward is from within. And yes, when we shine from within, this power not only has a purely material effect in our little home, but also resonates with the universe. There is an incredible power in it.

[Dhyan Mikael:] And you can't imagine how much power it has. It's almost like... I sometimes have the feeling that there are two worlds that have nothing to do with each other, but are closely interwoven. A person who looks inwards and illuminates their inner world seems to live in the same world as someone who doesn't do that. They may live in the same street, perhaps in the same house, perhaps even on the same floor, they eat the same things, they breathe the same air.

One lives in Heaven, and the other lives in hell. For one person, the world becomes more and more beautiful and more and more miracles happen, life becomes easier and easier, the people in his life become more and more loving, everything becomes more and more incomprehensible. And the life of the person living right next to them is getting darker and darker and everything is getting worse and worse.

And my experience is that it is almost as if these two worlds have no contact; as if one world knows nothing of the other; as if the people of one world cannot see the people of the other world at all, cannot recognize them at all, and they cannot harm them either. So, it's quite interesting. But you were still asking about practical aspects of this whole story.

Life is becoming more and more miraculous

Link to topic in video at 1h04m34s

Jesus once said something quite beautiful. He said: "Why do you worry?" There is no reason to worry. And that is what I am increasingly experiencing.

There is no reason
to worry.

And that is what I am increasingly experiencing.

Link to quote in video at 1h04m34s

You stop worrying, of course, that happens automatically, but in practical terms you realize how life, I can only put it this way, is becoming more and more miraculous. Things happen more and more by themselves; the right things; things that you couldn't even imagine. And I also observe this in the people I am in contact with through the videos. Some people ask me, and then I advise them to do something that I also do: meditate, turn inwards; and then, the same miracles start to happen in these people's lives, and it has such a resounding effect.

Swamiji often talks about this too. He says: people often come to him because they are having a hard time in life, and then they listen to him; then they do what he says; then they start meditating, and then their lives become totally miraculous. Then all their problems are solved. And then they got what they wanted – they were never interested in the spiritual path, they just wanted to get rid of their problems. Then, they stop meditating and go back to doing their old stuff, and after a few years, everything is back to the way it was before.

But the people who turn inwards, they experience: when you do what Jesus already talked about... Jesus called it in an abstract way, abstract to our ears. Children probably understand that, but this 'putting God first', this looking inwards, that's how I translate it... this meditating, this letting go of the whole thing that seems so urgent and important to us, and instead really going into God's lap and meditating... When you do that, it's as if miracles are constantly happening and life becomes easier and easier.

And it is almost as if nothing can happen to you anymore. The brighter your own light becomes... Swamiji often speaks about this: the aura develops. The energy field around the person, of which you yourself know nothing at all, becomes different, changes. And it's as if nothing can penetrate this small world that surrounds you that no longer fits in. And that is very practical. You have to experience it for yourself.

[Mona:] And it happens via resonances, via vibrations, there's even a logic to it. And you just spoke about the power, and I can feel that too: what a force it is; it spreads like waves. And I actually have the impression that this is also happening across the board at the moment. There is a lot of movement at the moment. It seems to me as if the divine truth is serious now; as if there really is something going on.

The time of the Apocalypse

Link to topic in video at 1h08m10s

[Dhyan Mikael:] We are living in a time where this is up now. We are living in the time that has been predicted for millennia. We are living in the time of the apocalypse. Apocalypse is a very positive word.

I have forgotten its true meaning. I just had a conversation with my wife the other day and she explained the meaning to me.... We have such negative ideas about it, but apocalypse is actually the revelation of the divine: everyone experiences it for himself. But its not like some big event in the world, but inside the people themselves. This is happening more and more.

And in this time that we are living in right now, on the one hand it is becoming easier and easier for the person who is interested in it; for the person who is in this life to discover it... it's getting easier and easier for them. You know, just normal people like you and me, we can live it now; we can discover it. And at the same time, it's becoming more and more difficult for people who aren't interested in it.

For some it gets easier and easier, and for others it gets even more difficult; and that's this negative side of the apocalypse. The ignorant, who have no idea of what we are talking about, experience this side. And that is what the normal world likes to look at: this side of the coin, which is also included in the predictions.

[Mona:] And I would like to share something very interesting, because I feel that these two worlds touch each other, or that there is an exchange in some cases. Well, I have a brother-in-law who still lives completely in the other world. He's ill and feeling bad and he's scared and can't sleep and and and... He had somehow announced a phone call, and I wasn't particularly looking forward to this phone call. And then, the phone call took a miraculous course.

He began to tell me about these fears, including that his son wanted to do something, and he prayed to God that this should please not happen. I then broadened his perspective a little. He was so grateful. Well, not from the bottom like that... I also went into this phone call with the feeling: well, I don't have the greatest desire... really also for us, who already feel the other, to have the willingness to get involved again and again in a completely new way.

That's what I did with the phone call, and there was an opening, and I was able to convey something in such an intermediate stage, which gave him a new perspective. Because, yes, it's getting darker and darker, and some people can't cope with it at all and break down, and at the same time, the two are beginning to interchange somewhere.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Oh yes, every single person has the opportunity to look in this direction, every single person. But you can't force them to.

[Mona:] No, I don't do that either. Well, I hadn't assumed that at all. I had actually just assumed: "Okay, I'll hold on to this relationship for a bit. It's a brother-in-law. I don't want to offend him there", and I was just open to it, and then it turned out that way.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Beautifully.

[Mona:] And I can feel that. And that's why it was important for me to have this conversation again today, and I think a lot came across: to invite this true power that is there into our lives, and to trust it, and to live it more and more; this miracle.

[Dhyan Mikael:] I think we mentioned it earlier.

Everyone here feels something a little bit; every person. And when someone here listens and says: "Ah, yes, I already know what they're talking about, I know it. Somewhere I know that too"... You feel completely ignorant... You say: "Yes, I know what they're talking about", even though you know nothing at all. You don't know anything about that what you are knowing.

It's kind of paradoxical. You know that too. You know exactly what they're talking about, but you couldn't say anything about it; you have no picture, nothing. And that's enough. You don't need more. This little flame – paying attention to it without knowing anything; without knowing what it means; where to go now; what to do now... It is enough. You will be carried.

You don't know anything about that what you are knowing.

It's kind of paradoxical.

Link to quote in video at 1h13m02s

[Mona:] And you will be amazed at the power it contains.

Two effects of Samarpan Meditation

Link to topic in video at 1h13m50s

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, and I think you can also do practical things for it. I like to talk about the Samarpan Meditation. I mentioned it earlier: this simple meditation – I don't need to say much about it here because I have made countless videos about it – does two things: on the one hand, it does what I spoke about very briefly earlier: the sensitivity, this subtlety within us... it increases our ability to look inwards. And it connects us with something that we don't know, but that we do know; with something that is bigger than we are.

That sounds a bit abstract or esoteric, but in meditation you don't do anything esoteric. You simply rest your attention up here, at the crown chakra, at this part of the body; nothing esoteric; very, very simple, just here. And over time, you get the feeling and then you experience it: "Wow, it's really as if I'm connected to the source there." You can't explain it at all. As I said, I'm an engineer, I like it practical, I don't like all these spiritual ideas. Meditation has nothing to do with ideas, nothing to do with imagination.

Quite simply, quite practically, quite grounded, you sit there and focus your attention on a certain spot up there, and you do nothing else. You don't wait for anything, you don't want anything, you don't expect anything. And the second thing that happens in this meditation is that you experience a connection to something, and at some point you know that everything comes from there. You don't know how. You have no idea how it all works, but you experience it more and more. And at some point, you know how life works.

Yes, I like it to be practical.

[Mona:] Although I don't have this experience, I can completely agree with this and feel a 'yes': "Yes, that's how it is, yes."

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, you don't do the meditation. I always talk about it because I have practical experience with it. It's different for you. But I always find it quite good when the whole thing remains simple, and when there are such simple, practical things that you can do, without having to do anything esoteric, and that's why I like it so much.

[Mona:] Yes, and above all, I like that too: without having to build up any new concepts that you'll have to let go of at some point anyway.

[Dhyan Mikael:] It's all about your own experience. It's not about any concepts, it's not about connecting to any spheres or any who knows what.... It increases sensitivity to one's own experience, one's own inner self; in fact, it is what Swamiji calls one's own soul, and that then becomes one's own Guru. That is your own compass, and it becomes stronger and stronger. After a while, you have experienced it so often that you lose your fear in life and become relaxed and happy and arrive more and more.

[Mona:] Yes. And above all, this certainty that what is most important in life cannot be lost.

[Dhyan Mikael:] You can't lose it. That would be completely absurd.

You can't lose it.

That would be completely absurd.

Link to quote in video at 1h17m27s

[Mona:] Exactly. Yes, dear Mikael, I think it's nice to end like this; for you too?

[Dhyan Mikael:] I have no idea; as you wish. But it's round – in any case.

[Mona:] It feels completely coherent to me. Thank you.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, thank you.