What is Heaven?

[Mona:] Hello, dear Mikael.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Hello, dear Mona.

[Mona:] I'm glad that you're here and that we're talking to each other; and with you I always get to choose the topic... and Heaven has been calling me for a long time. I want to talk to you about Heaven, because you say on your homepage: "Excuse me, is this the way to Heaven?"

And that's certainly not meant in any detached way, and yet I realize that this quality of Heaven, that it's missing here in life; that we need it. And I would like to start like this, or how you would like to start with it... what Heaven is for you; what that means; which perhaps also leads to you writing like this on your homepage. I would like to talk to you about this whole topic.

"Excused me, is this the way to Heaven?"

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Oh wow, what a great topic. Thank you. Yes, when I first started making the videos, I was thinking about what to call it. I mean... what I do is: I share my life experience. How did I become happy? And how do I continue to move more and more in this direction? And you can't say it directly. Anything that could be expressed precisely would somehow not be true. And here in Christianity, in our Christian culture, we have a name for that which cannot be expressed. One name is 'God', but it is personified. Most people imagine someone, someone who is evil or good.

But there is this Heaven; the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven. And that awakens the feeling for me that I am interested in; this goal that everyone knows and yet no one knows what it is. And at some point, it came to me. I'm very connected to Jesus; I'm not a fanatical Christian, but I'm so emotional, you know? And this spiritual path is a very emotional path. It has nothing to do with the mind. It has nothing to do with reason. And that's why I called it like this: "Excuse me, is this the way to Heaven?"

[Mona:] Yes, I think it's so beautiful. That's what appealed to me. My spiritual path – that's why it spoke to me – began with this experience of Heaven, and I then somehow realized: that's where I always want to be. Of course, it didn't happen straight away, but there was also a kind of memory.

Normally you have other experiences and think: "Okay, forget it", but here... it was so emphatic, it was so clear and felt so true that my whole mind couldn't talk me out of it; that I felt: I want to go there; I want to go this way. And yes, we all know this or associate something with this term. In other words, we all have it somewhere inside us, or it is an experience, it is a longing of ours. And nevertheless, what is your experience of Heaven like? Can you somehow describe what it is for you?

[Dhyan Mikael:] Before I go into this last specific question, I would like to say something before that. It's like this: we have no idea what Heaven is. We have no idea what the truth is, but when someone speaks to us from there, we feel: "That's right!" We know it without knowing it, and you just said it so beautifully, this: we remember something that we don't know at all, at least not consciously.

But we come from there. This memory is hidden deep within us, and it is only because of this that we can hear it at all; it is only because of this that someone like Jesus could be heard. He said something that could neither be proven nor understood, but everyone who heard him knew that it was true. And that is one's own memory, inside oneself.

[Mona:] I would also like to say something about that. There is this certainty... Someone said to me the other day: there is such a certainty in you. This certainty is more true than anything else, and there's no arguing about it.

[Dhyan Mikael:] And at the same time, there's a part of you that says: "That's nonsense."

[Mona:] Yes, exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] "It can't be true!" But that doesn't matter at all. You know: it's just true. I find that quite amazing.

[Mona:] Yes, and I had the experience that this part that says: "So it's nonsense", that it kept popping up at the beginning and also tried to dissuade me from this path, but this path in its brilliant clarity was stronger. So, I think that once you've really come into contact with it so emphatically, and that happened to you somewhere, then it takes hold... eventually.

Something that slowly sneaks into life

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. When you ask... what did you ask: what is my Heaven like?

[Mona:] Yes, how you experience it; what it is for you. Maybe you can describe it a bit like that... [Dhyan Mikael:] Well, first of all, it's something that creeps into my life very slowly and quietly. You hear from time to time about people who have very impressive, dramatic, sudden experiences, but I don't talk about that when I talk about Heaven. These sudden experiences are okay, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Of course, I've also had my own glimpses of truth in my life, and we talked about this earlier in another video, which are remarkable, but ultimately meaningless, because in my experience these experiences don't bring about change, but rather are a sign: "Ah, I'm on my way" or "I'm going in the right direction". The actual change, the change happens gradually, that is my experience.

And Heaven is a quality of being, and therefore also of the experience, that emerges very slowly. And it's quite interesting: you can almost overlook it. I sometimes compare it to when you grow up. It's not as if you wake up as a teenager or a child and then something happens that day and then you're an adult, but rather it's something that begins gradually at some point.

It's something that starts at some point in time, this growing up, with puberty – it never actually stops for most people; I don't actually know anyone for whom it has ever stopped – and you keep growing up. And then at some point you think: now I'm an adult, but twenty years later you can only laugh at yourself. The older you get, the more you realize that you haven't actually grown up yet. And it's the same with Heaven.

The opposite of "Heaven"

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Before I try to characterize what Heaven is like for me, I would first describe a contrast: what life is like without Heaven; what it used to be like for me, and what most people might know. And I would say: it is characterized by fear and worry. So, it's not that you're constantly walking around with an anxiety trauma - most people are more or less happy. But they are not really relaxed, they are not really anxiety-free.

In my experience, all the people I know, and I used to be like that too, have this certainty inside them: "If I don't make an effort, if I don't do everything right, then there's a real problem." It's as if you're constantly up against... like there's a sword of Damocles hovering over you. Nobody is really happy. Everyone is looking for something, everyone is looking for love or for a relationship or for success, for some kind of security, for something that ensures that I am in good hands in this world. And nobody finds it. And everyone is running around, each in their own way.

[Mona:] You describe it beautifully, and I can also feel it in myself: it was the same for me... there's also a sense of being driven, and there's a lot of stress involved.

[Dhyan Mikael:] An incredible amount of stress. And the characteristic thing about this whole story is that we don't know anything else; that we don't know anyone who knows anything else; and that's why it's completely normal for all of us, completely normal. Some people realize how stressed they are, because they get sick or depressed or something. But then they think they're ill, or they think they're wrong. But hardly anyone thinks that everyone here is actually abnormal, simply because everyone is like that.

[Mona:] Crazy, yes.

The absence of fear and worry

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[Dhyan Mikael:] And then someone comes along like Jesus, or a Guru, who touches you with his voice or with his energy or whatever. And suddenly something touches us, and we suspect: "Oh wow, something completely different is possible!" And this something completely different, what I like to call Heaven, is not something that happens. It is not an event.

It is not something that tastes good or sounds good or makes you happy, but it is the absence of worry. It is the absence of doubt. Some people say: an arrival. That goes in a nice direction, because for me, it expresses the fact that you don't feel any need to go anywhere, to want to achieve anything. You just live your life, but it's sudden... ...not suddenly, of course... [Mona:] Yes, I know.

[Dhyan Mikael:] ...right. Everything is suddenly right. Not that everything is different, but you realize, "Oh wow, I don't need to worry. I don't need to worry. I'm deeply at peace.

[Dhyan Mikael:] But that has nothing to do with this world. It has nothing to do with me suddenly being safer in this world. This body will die. I don't know how, and it's not my business. But my being, and how I experience it, is suddenly completely independent of it. Jesus said that so beautifully. He summarized it in one sentence: "Why do you worry?"

And that's where the gap between normal people and someone who has one or two legs in Heaven becomes tangible. He looks around and says: "Why do you worry?" This is not someone who has ecstatically tremendous experiences. No, someone who is quietly simple and... Yes, nothing more. Simple: everything is fine. I don't know whether that makes sense now.

[Mona:] Yes, it does. I also liked the way you described it, how gently it creeps in. It seemed to me as if they were very thin veins at first, which then become wider over time, like rivers, and suddenly it's always there. And what happened for me was that after this hellish scenario in which I had previously lived lost its power... I came into contact with other qualities.

A different form of happiness emerged, of peace, also a form of bliss. Nevertheless, yes, the car can break down and I can break a leg, everything can be the same as before, but it got put into perspective when this new presence of Heaven came along, taking up more and more space over time.

A new sensibility

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, I said at the beginning: it's a development. And it's quite funny. In reality, nothing is changing. Nothing changes in the world as we see it, and nothing changes in the world as we don't see it. Our ability to perceive changes. A part of us that has never been allowed to open its eyes is beginning to open its eyes and become sensitive. This has something to do with becoming more sensitive. And to the extent that we become more sensitive to the... some people call it the soul, which then gains strength.

The soul is what we are, in reality, without this body; what was before the body, and what still is after the body; what we are. And the perception of this is becoming ever clearer. And the more this perception grows, the more you recognize the rightness of everything, and then the other has less and less power. The other is basically one huge misunderstanding, but of course we know nothing else, and that's why we live in this hell.

[Mona:] And at the same time, it's like this: the more we recognize this truth, this soul perception, then our world, this hell, changes anyway... So, not just the perception of it, but because we are then there in a different form; because we are no longer searching there; because we no longer have any dependencies there; because it feels completely different, whether I am now flooded with heavenly feelings or whether I constantly feel horror and hell in my body.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, practical life also changes, but that is secondary. Life becomes easier, life becomes more peaceful, life becomes more successful, but that is no longer important. If it wasn't more successful, if it wasn't more peaceful, it wouldn't matter. That's really amazing. You were talking about the title of my website: "Excuse me, is this the way to Heaven?" After all, that implies not only that there is a Heaven, but also that someone is asking.

That's why I make videos: because I believe that everyone is looking for it, even if they don't know it yet. And I think it's very important that people know that the whole thing is a development. Especially here in the West, where we really have no idea about spirituality at all, we somehow have a misunderstanding or a view that enlightenment, for example, is something that suddenly happens to you. You do something to become ready, and then, one day, lightning hits you and then you are enlightened and in Heaven and everything is different.

And firstly, that's not right, and secondly, it prevents us from learning what we can do about it. I just said: it's like growing, like opening our eyes, the growth of a part of us that we have neglected for dozens of lifetimes. And if that is the case, that something can grow there, then you can also encourage it, you can fertilize it; that is why you can meditate for example; and that is why anyone can do it today. And by the way, that's why I make videos in the first place: because it's a path that anyone can take today, to Heaven.

It was already possible in Jesus' time, but it was much more difficult. The times have become so easy today for people, who want to go this way, who want to seek and find their Heaven, and that's why I make videos, because it's not witchcraft. But you have to do something that isn't actually doing anything. You have to learn to look in the right direction, and the rest will happen by itself.

The primal trauma: "I am going to die"

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[Mona:] Yes, and perhaps also to recognize what's stopping you. So, you recently made a video about traumas that come up, and I think that this is very important because I think we're all burdened with trauma.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes.

[Mona:] For me at least, I felt that as long as they were in my body, they kept me down. They had like a suction effect; I could have so many great experiences of Heaven, it didn't fit together at all. And it's actually easier now because we know a lot more about it. We didn't even know that before.

I think it's only in the last fifty years that we've even become aware of these traumas that are in us and what we collectively carry within us, and now is a wonderful time to redeem and heal them. And I also think it's so important, your videos or when we talk about it, that people know that everyone is capable of doing this. It's not just a few very special people who suddenly become enlightened, but this path is open to everyone.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, I made this video about trauma because, firstly, quite a number of people write to me on the subject, and secondly, because I have such experiences myself in my life, and thirdly, because I have learned how normal it is. It is so screamingly normal. Everyone affected by it thinks they're completely alone, and it feels like you're completely wrong and completely messed up. In reality, almost everyone is basically like that. And you just said something... you said that there are things that prevent us from doing that.

I don't think there's anything stopping us, but I'm just saying that because I look at it differently.

We take this human existence very seriously. We think we are this body and we are identified. It's called "being identified with this body", this belief: "I am this body. Before I was born, I didn't exist, and when I die, I am no more." That alone is a tragedy, this certainty. And then in this life, which is always imperfect, all kinds of things happen that throw us off track, not only because they are difficult for us, but also because they keep reminding us of this misunderstanding.

Even a person who has not experienced a trauma has the trauma of being identified as a human being. This means: "I am going to die", and there are people who will do anything to prevent this. They have themselves frozen because they hope that at some point there will be a way to prevent this body from dying.

Almost nobody faces the fact that I'm going to die. And that's why, no matter how old people get, it's always a tragedy when someone dies. It's actually strange. And a trauma or an accident or a tragedy is only so incredibly explosive because it always reminds us that we are basically looking in the wrong direction through and through from the very beginning.

And if we didn't have this identification with the body, then even a traumatic experience... it would still be painful, but it wouldn't touch us at our core. And in a way, all these things remind us: "Hello, you have a little misunderstanding." It's like a wake-up call. And it becomes increasingly painful. You know, it's like this and it's very noticeable: just the people... There are two kinds of people who go on the spiritual path and awaken.

One kind of people are those whose lives become so unbearable that they can't help but stop and look; or they break. But when they stop and look, then they discover the truth, and then the whole problem dissolves. Then even the trauma no longer prevents you from going to Heaven, because the basis of the trauma, "I am this body, something terrible has happened to me, and if that hadn't happened, then I would die, and"... that is no longer there, and then everything relaxes.

The second kind of person who sets off is the one who has no problems at all, who has achieved everything - and is still not happy.... [Mona:] Yes... [Dhyan Mikael:] ...and who get to the point where they don't know what else to do. They have everything, they have money, they can buy sex, they can buy drugs as much as they want. They can do whatever they want because they can pay and bribe everyone – and they are not happy. And these two kinds of people, they start on the path – some of them, not all of them.

[Mona:] In my case, both came together, basically. So: intolerability due to trauma, and at the same time actually fulfilling all the requirements that should make you happy, and still not happier.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. I once had business dealings, many years ago, with two brothers who were exceptionally successful; they were, I don't know, probably billionaires, but I haven't counted how much money they had. Each of them had a couple of Ferraris in the garage. They did whatever they wanted. They could do anything they wanted.

And I had personal dealings with them, and I liked them, they were great guys. But I sensed that they were completely empty and disillusioned. They didn't know what to do with themselves. These successful, rich people distracted themselves with drugs and sex, but they were simply disoriented. They ran out of ideas as to where else they could look for fulfillment. That is bitter.

Getting into the body, not out

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[Mona:] And above all, it is also very destructive for the whole of creation what is then done, constantly flying around and buying and consuming without end. On this material level, resources are limited somewhere, and that is also part of it to a certain extent. However, I would add one thing about trauma from my own experience.

Perhaps it is the case with people who are very, very burdened with trauma... I used to have a tendency to dissociate, of course I didn't know that at all, and there is a danger in the spiritual world, in this knowledge that we are not the body, that this remains unredeemed, and you beam yourself away somewhere. And for me it was important, and these traumas also affected my nervous system, at least in my case, and that has already left its traces in my body. So, it was important for me to get back into the body first, because this cliff is sometimes a problem.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Oh yes. That's a very important point. Recognizing that you are not the body, it has nothing to do with wanting to get away from the body. I was talking about meditation earlier. When I talk about meditation, I always mean Samarpan Meditation, and what I like about it is that it doesn't take you away. It's not about any ideas, it's not about visualization, it's not about... there is so much out the that people do... imagining something you want and all that kind of stuff.

That can be really dangerous for a lot of people.

And the path I was allowed to take in this life was completely different. It brought me down to earth, down to earth. We are here in this life, in this body, to discover Heaven in the body, in life, through the body, through life, by being here, and really being here. That is a very important point that you are making. And in Samarpan Meditation, there... So, Swamiji, my Guru who brings this meditation to us, he always says: "Don't change."

You don't need to become better. You don't need to become more spiritual. You don't need to learn to fly away. You don't need to learn to leave the body. On the contrary. All these attempts to become different promote dissociation, promote psychosis, promote... You know, where is the beginning? Where is the end? You can't judge whether you're fooling yourself or not. No one can judge that. But just be here, feel your body, meditate.

During meditation, you simply feel the crown chakra, nothing more. And you don't need to go anywhere, you shouldn't go anywhere either. Just be here, feel it and breathe. And then to watch how life gradually changes of its own accord, that's the crucial thing. I'm quite allergic to that... I have a really fine nose for these things that go into the imagination, into the mind, and I've disliked that all my life.

[Mona:] Yes, for me too. No manipulation whatsoever. My early warning system kicks in immediately.

Not somewhere else, not at another time

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. And Jesus... I talk about him so often because I just love him... he embodies that for me too. He was so earthly, he was human, and yet he spoke all the time about Heaven and about his Father in Heaven. But he said: "Heaven is at hand." Today I know what he meant. Here (at the crown chakra) we discover Heaven, here; not in the thoughts, not in any future events, but here, where we are now.

And hardly anyone can imagine that. People... either they don't believe in Heaven, or they believe they have to go somewhere else, or become completely different and everything has to change for Heaven to come to them. But neither is true.

[Mona:] It does change, but in a very, very different way. And I believe that this idea is also strongly linked to the church. Heaven is above. Heaven is deeply here. That is so important, and it is deeply here for everyone. And that's why I find this statement from you, "Excuse me, is this the way to Heaven?" so beautiful, especially, which is also amazing, that you still have this "excuse me" in it, this, yes... you almost don't dare to ask. So, for me at the beginning it was also like: only Jesus can experience this, or saints or something.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes.

[Mona:] And to have the courage to take that on... I like this sentence somewhere, "Excuse me, is this the way to Heaven?" So, I ask very carefully: "May I perhaps also go this way?"

The misunderstandings of religions

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, you may, exactly. Yes, the church... It's like that, you know... that doesn't just apply to the Christian church.

Every religion is like a ladder that enables people to get on their way. But when someone gets to where the ladder leads, then they can no longer be part of the church or the religion. That's just the way it is. As soon as you start to become your own Guru, as soon as you start to get to Heaven, you are independent... even if there is no one left who could be independent, but let's leave these linguistic subtleties.

And that's why every church is made up of people who haven't arrived. That's not a fault of the church. That's just the way it is. It's normal. We can be infinitely grateful that there are religions and churches that preserve this knowledge in a very imperfect way, but they preserve it, nevertheless. But the knowledge is preserved by people who don't know what they are really preserving, because as soon as they discover it, they are thrown out.

Then they no longer have a place there. And that's why every church, every religion is full of misunderstanding. That's quite normal. It's not that people are all evil; no. That's just the way it is. But you're right, of course, this gives rise to certain ideas, for example that Heaven is something that comes after the death of the body; or, that Heaven is something that is somewhere else but not here, or that it is tomorrow but not today.

[Mona:] Exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] But, as I said, this is only because the people who tell us about Heaven are not there themselves. But as soon as someone speaks to us who is there, they speak quite differently.

[Mona:] Yes. And maybe it's just important... I also sense your appreciation for the religion, and I share that. You stand on its shoulders somewhere. Without having brought this knowledge here so far, we would have to start from scratch, which would perhaps be more difficult.

But to recognize that all ideas, all beliefs and so on are only images that try to convey this; that we cannot hold on to them, but that they can accompany us a little on the way, but that ultimately it is always the experience; and if we put (religion) in between, then the experience is no longer possible; that is mutually exclusive.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, but everyone has to somehow discover that for themselves. Your own experience, that's what counts.

The story of the black sheep

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[Mona:] Yes, but it's important to talk about it, because what we've been indoctrinated with via the church, and that's also in our cells... there may be a certain fear among many people: "If I don't follow this now, if I don't take it so seriously, maybe even let it go, then I won't be a good person." So, I would say that many people have a need to be good, but some don't even know how to do it.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Well, the thing is, you know: if you set out to go to Heaven, then you're bad.

[Mona:] Yes.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Jesus liked to talk about the black sheep. If one sets out, then he no longer has a place in the church. You can only be part of the church and religion for as long as you are lost like everyone else. But as soon as you start to believe: "I can go on my way." I... Normal people all think it's heresy, it's blasphemy, if I say: "I can come to God." It's like that in all religions. As soon as someone says: "I have found God, I see God"... they used to kill him.

And that happens because all the others who can't get on the path don't like it at all when someone reminds them about the fact that they could actually get on the path as well. And that's why we live in such blessed times these days, because we can do this, without getting into trouble. It's unimaginable that today we can start meditating; that today we can start discovering ourselves, discovering God; that we can live a life in Heaven without being killed or imprisoned or chased away. But it's still the same: if you set out, you're a black sheep. That's just the way it is.

There's this story of the black sheep in the Bible, and it's very telling. It goes like this: there was once a shepherd, God, who had a hundred sheep. One day one of them went astray, and it was the biggest and strongest of them. It is always the biggest and strongest that goes astray. This sheep went astray, and then the shepherd left the ninety-nine sheep behind to look for the one.

And when he found it somewhere in the wilderness, he was overjoyed, took the sheep into his arms and said: "I love you more than the ninety-nine." That's what the Bible says, and it means: the sheep that goes astray pleases God; Heaven rejoices when one of them sets out. All other consider the sheep to be wrong: the black sheep. In principle, this is a story that encourages us to do so. It says: "Yes, it feels wrong, and that's normal." We humans are like that. It's not that the ninety-nine sheep are evil.

We humans are just like that. As long as we can't see something yet, we think everyone who can see it is completely crazy and wrong. And that's why... everyone who starts on the path feels wrong; every single person. They feel wrong, wrong, and you often get into trouble. Your friends think you have a screw loose. "What? You believe in Heaven?" But that's how it is. And everyone has to discover that for themselves. Everyone has to find the courage for themselves somehow.

[Mona:] I find it beautiful, the comparison, because it also expresses the closeness to God of the one sheep, but also the power that is in this sheep. The power is the power that comes from the connection, and this one sheep felt it. And at the same time, I believe that we can also modify these stories now; that we can look at the fact that what this one sheep has done is our natural state, which is there for all; which is open to all.

And perhaps, if there are more, and it seems to be the case at the moment, who set out on the path, the relationship will change. And it is no longer the case that these people somehow rise up, as is sometimes the case in the church, but rather that this experience makes people humble. And all those who are really serious about this path are willing to share and let others participate, see your videos, and to help on this path. And I believe that a new era is dawning, and in it lie new possibilities.

[Dhyan Mikael:] So, what is definitely infinitely helpful is the fellowship with others who are on the path. Jesus said: "If two or three are together in my name, then I am in their midst." That means: this energy, this heavenly energy, is then stronger. You support each other through it. And I experience this in an extraordinary way.

I am sometimes at the "Place of Meditation" near Frankfurt, and when I am there, I experience it so intensely, this support of this collective energy from a collection of people who are on the same path. It's really great, but within this community, everyone is alone as well. The path that everyone takes is alone, and the experience is alone. It helps, and I can only recommend it to everyone, to find people who are walking the same path. That really is a great support.

And yet: even there, you are always alone. Every single person is always a black sheep somewhere. I experience that again and again.

And you have to be prepared for that.

[Mona:] Yes, that's what you said earlier about growing up. That's part of it, and it is also important because, cosmically speaking, we are each an individual expression. And this individual expression also wants to fully realize itself, and it also needs the courage to be alone. And it feels... So, you have to go through places that actually feel like dying.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, of course.

[Mona:] And that is the test. That is intentional. And it's important that other people know about it: that helps too. Even if you're still so alone, but then to know that everyone feels that way; that's important, that information.

We mistrust the only right way

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[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, usually we are looking... and that's the big difficulty and that's also what keeps the flock, the ninety-nine sheep together... We normally only ever look outwards for everything that is important to us. We seek our security, our safety, our well-being on the outside, always and exclusively: in our circumstances and with other people. And we have never learned to look in the other direction, inwards, and that is why it feels so strange and so threatening, as if we are turning away from everything else; and of course we are.

Once you do that, once you develop the courage to turn away from the world... I don't mean practically going into a cave, but simply sitting down and forgetting everything you think is important and meditating and going inwards. Once you take this path, you discover, as you described so beautifully earlier, that it doesn't make life more difficult, but easier. We believe that we have to constantly take care of and fight and defend the outside world and secure the goodwill of other people.

But when I turn inwards, it's as if external coexistence suddenly follows completely new rules, rules that we couldn't even imagine. There is suddenly an energy at work, an energy of peace, an energy of Heaven... people are simply different. And that's what I meant: everyone has to keep discovering it for themselves. Again and again, you turn away from everything, and Jesus would have said: you just turn to God; inwards; or you meditate and forget everything else. Jesus said: "Put God first." He is saying: "Your attention belongs in God's direction.

If you do that, then all the rest will work itself out." And that's what I mean; Jesus said that two thousand years ago. This no longer taking the world for important, no longer taking our fellow human beings for important, feels totally wrong and scary. And then you discover: the more you do this, the more you turn inwards, the more you look inwards, towards God, towards Heaven, whatever you want to call it, everyone has to discover and decide for themselves... then... everything you were worried about suddenly magically works differently.

But, as I said, everyone has to discover that for themselves. Everyone has to get through this fear somehow, and that's why it's so nice when we can talk about it. That's why it's so great that there are more and more people who can talk about it truthfully and authentically, because then, other people feel: "This is really possible. I've always known it! It really works."

The new view of love

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[Mona:] And there is something else I would like to share from my experience: it actually feels, as if you no longer take the world seriously and people seriously, and then this new look is born, and suddenly this taking things seriously is there in a completely different quality, in a free quality.

And I would also say that true love is then there for people because I am free; because I am not attached to something like a limpet and need something. It is a quality of love, also of looking into the world, of experiencing it as if everything is fresh again. Completely changed... [Dhyan Mikael:] ...completely changed. The moment I no longer need the world and people, then I can love them... [Mona:] Exactly. Yes!

[Dhyan Mikael:] ...and then I can find them beautiful, and then I can enjoy them. All people need each other, and that's why no one can love.

[Mona:] Yes. And then it's nice to need people, but in this freedom. And I've been pregnant with this sentence for a long time too... the sentence has changed for me. It is often said in the Bible: "You shall love God." For me it is: "You will love God." It is simply like this: you will love God; you will love God in everything. You will recognize God in everything. That's how it feels to me.

[Dhyan Mikael:] You have to be very careful with what the Bible says. You always have to question certain words, how people expressed it back then. And we understand it today with a completely different energy. When they used to say... When we read: "You shall love God", then we take that as coercion.

We've all been damaged by the pressure of the church: "If you don't love God, you'll go to hell." No, that was meant quite differently. "You're in hell... Sure, we're all in hell. Everyone is worried. Everyone's on fire all the time. We don't need to be afraid of going to hell. We're already in it.

But if you want to go somewhere else, then, just as a tip"... that's this 'you should', 'you shall'.... "then, just as a tip: Love God. Look inside, and you'll discover a whole new perspective." The language, they used back then was always very concise, very direct and existential. However, it was not 'thou shalt' (with a raised index finger), but it expressed something that we no longer understand in the same way today.

[Mona:] Yes, I would say that this language nevertheless contained love in its directness, and then, 'thou shalt'... if you feel love at the same time, if that is an indication of love, then it is completely different from the way it is understood today, because today we live mostly in this hell, in this separation, and, as we were just talking about, we can no longer feel what love is. So beautiful.

Only those who need nothing love the world

Link to topic in video at 52m06s

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, and something very interesting happens. Many people believe that if you turn to yourself, and if you no longer need anyone, and if you are in Heaven then you don't care about the world. And the opposite is true. The people who know nothing of Heaven and the people who live in fear, and I think that is most of them, are so desperately preoccupied with their fear that they destroy their fellow human beings and the world – and themselves – because they are incapable of seeing clearly.

But the person who arrives and begins to live in Heaven, for whom there is nothing left to do except one thing: pass on what he or she has discovered, not out of love, but because you have to. But it is done in love. I'm not doing this because I want to do someone a favor. I'm doing myself a favor. But it is done with love. There is no other way.

[Mona:] Yes, it is something completely natural.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, it's completely clear: this is happening now and it's the last task, so to speak.

[Mona:] Yes. And it simply happens through us, and it is completely natural that we agree to it and that we want nothing else but that.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. But I really want to get a bit more practical in this video. It's all very well to talk about Heaven, but when you talk about it, it inevitably always remains vague, because no matter how eloquently I might express myself: no one can make another person understand what they are really experiencing.

And that doesn't just apply to spiritual things, it applies to everything, to every mundane worldly situation: we have no idea what the other person is really experiencing. You can't communicate something like that. It simply doesn't work, and that's why everybody has to experience it for themselves. I want everyone who watches the video to know that it is possible for everyone to experience this; that it is not rare like winning the lottery. And it's very simple...

Your own compass to Heaven

Link to topic in video at 55m41s

You asked: what is it like for me to be in Heaven? But I would like to round it off a little by talking about how I got to Heaven: first of all, by myself. The magical thing about my life, and I'm sure it's the same for everyone else, is that although you always have the feeling that you have to do something and you have to do the right thing... that this path actually somehow works by itself, simply by doing more and more of what you feel like doing.

I came to my first spiritual guide twenty-four years ago – to Soham, my spiritual Master, which he still is today – and he taught me a lot. But the one thing that runs through everything that he told me again and again is: "Pay attention to what brings you joy. Pay attention to where your energy is going and follow that, whether it feels wrong to you or not." We don't know what's right. We have no idea at all about what is right, but everyone has this built-in compass. And if you follow it, then the right things happen.

Things happen that you often don't think are right, but when you look back, then you realize with incredible amazement: "Wow, that was all perfect to lead me to Heaven." So, every person, even a person who is listening here and has no idea what we are talking about... if you simply start to take your own energy, your own joy as a compass and learn to follow it more and more... At the beginning it's not so easy, of course, because we're not used to it, but after a while you get better at it.

Then things become easier and easier and more and more automatic. And the second thing I would like to say: Meditating is so helpful, and really anyone can do it. The Samarpan Meditation that I'm talking about is simply magical because you really don't do anything at all. You don't do anything at all. And it's exactly as Jesus said: when you focus your attention on God, everything else happens by itself, and you start to experience that through this meditation, which is so simple. That's what it's all about.

The path of this meditation is a path of your own experience. It's not something you have to believe in and then believe something for ten, twenty, thirty years because you think something great will happen afterwards, but you experience it yourself. And I would encourage everyone to do that. I've only ever done things where I've realized for myself: "Yes, this is good for me." I have never done anything out of blind faith. I can't recommend that to anyone.

[Mona:] And what helped me – meditation wasn't possible for me; my body was probably too restless due to trauma – was silence. It was silence. In this silence, everything emerged, and the right thing happened.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. And everyone goes their own way. I like to talk about meditation because it helps me... [Mona:] Exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] ...and you know, someone might hear that and think, "Ah, that's interesting," and then maybe that's for that person.

[Mona:] Exactly.

[Dhyan Mikael:] And someone else hears that and says: "Well, I like Mikael, but this meditation, that doesn't interest me at all." That's totally okay. Everyone has their own compass.

[Mona:] I thought that this was important, because meditation... I don't want to deny that and I recognize the importance of it, and yet I always felt uncomfortable in a spiritual environment because it didn't work for me, due to trauma, dissociations and so on; and therefore also to know for other people: there are always ways, they can also be different, because...– not with you, but in some spiritual environments – there is a kind of looking down on people who can't meditate. And that is why it is important that there are always paths to God.

[Dhyan Mikael:] That brings us back to the black sheep.

[Mona:] Yes, exactly, yes.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Every person has their own path, every person. And Swamiji, that's the Guru who brings this meditation which I like to talk about so much, into society, he says exactly the same thing. I mean, he swears by this meditation; his whole life's work is to make it known. But he recommends everyone to just try it out. And then he says: "Try it for forty-five days. If you don't like it after that – no problem. Then it's not for you. Then something else is for you." It's exactly as you say. There is a way for everyone, everyone. And everyone will find it.

[Mona:] Yes, because it's in us that everyone will find it. Yes, such a beautiful topic and I think we've talked about it so comprehensively. I'm so grateful for the subtitle on your website because I feel it's so important.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, you know, we live in a strange world: everybody is looking for happiness, but nobody believes in happiness, nobody believes in Heaven, nobody believes in God. And then, if someone sets out or tells you about it, then everyone else shakes their head and thinks they've got a tit. But the truth is that everyone is looking for it.

[Mona:] Yes, but it also takes courage to simply do it, regardless of what others think.

The truth of ancient fairytales

Link to topic in video at 1h02m11s

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. I would like to tell you something else. We were both just talking about the fact that everyone goes their own way, no matter what it looks like. That has nothing at all to do with the fact that you have to meditate now. And I spoke earlier about this magical compass that everyone carries within them, and this is what makes life so easy. And the more you can trust it, the easier life becomes, because it automatically guides you. And then, you only do the things that you have energy for.

And because you have energy for them, they are easy. And because you then do things that you have energy for, they are successful. It's that simple – actually. And what I want to tell you is... There are these old fairy tales. There are many old fairy tales that are based on ancient myths, and many of these fairy tales seem like children's stories to us today because they tell something very childlike. There is usually the protagonist of the story... There is usually no hero.

The people in the fairy tales are usually anything but heroic. They're in some incredibly awkward situation, and they have no idea how to get out of it, and they stumble cluelessly through life and actually do everything wrong. And you read these fairy tales and your hair stands on end because, instead of being clever, they just do what they think is good next. They follow their impulses, as if they wouldn't even recognize the seriousness of the situation. That's how it is in many fairy tales.

And then they stumble through some forest and get lost, and everything becomes more and more dangerous. And then suddenly a house appears in the forest, and that's where they find rescue and help. And in the most adventurous ways, which seem to us like implausible coincidences, one coincidence after another, help and rescue arrive, and everything gets even better. And in the end, they are the king or marry the princess, or something like that. And these old myths, they describe how life actually works.

They're not children's stories. For us, they seem like children's stories because we've lost our childlike faith in life. But they are not children's stories, they are ancient myths that describe how life works. If you forget everything that you think is right, forget everything that everyone keeps telling you, and start following your inner compass: simply doing what you have energy for now, in this moment, however insane it feels, then you take one step at a time.... you are going in a completely unreasonable direction.

You don't know where this is going. You don't know where it's going. You have no idea how to get out of this hell. And this compass, this stumbling through life, anyone can do that; and this leads to the goal. And all those old legends, they tell about it.

[Mona:] Yes. So beautiful what you say; and this magical compass... a wonderful word. And you also mentioned joy earlier, and that was also a decisive factor for me somewhere. At a certain point, the path was completely crazy. My mind went crazy. And at the same time, I felt: there is always a spark of joy, a joy that I didn't even know existed. And then I had the impression that if everything is lost anyway, then I can also follow joy, something like that... That is the way.

Reason - or joy? The way to Heaven

Link to topic in video at 1h06m44s

[Dhyan Mikael:] Young people, for example, ask themselves: what kind of job should I do? They may have finished school, and it's a terrible time because you have the feeling that you have to make a decision now – and it better be the right decision. Your parents want you to make the right decision, and your friends all seem to be making the right decision, but you have no idea. And then you might have two options. And one job is really good, it has a future, you have a secure income, and you also have a good career, and it all sounds great.

The only problem is that you don't actually want it. Everyone says: "Great! Great opportunity! Do that!" And then there's this other job, and it's not at all future-proof and not at all prestigious, and you can't tell your parents about it at all because they would simply be shocked. But when you think about it and when you're there, you're just happy. That's what I mean. That's the compass that says: "Go that way." I've always done it that way in my life, not because I'm wise. I simply couldn't do otherwise.

I was incapable of doing the 'right' thing. I couldn't do it any other way. So, as I said, it's not because I'm wise - I couldn't do otherwise. And my life is so magical, and I can recommend it to anyone. And you always have these decisions: "Do I do what's sensible now, what's right, what will also prove to be good in the future? Or do I do what my joy says: This that's what I really want!" What to do then?

[Mona:] And recognizing that is ultimately also Heaven. We are allowed to do that; we are allowed to live that, to give ourselves permission to do that... [Dhyan Mikael:] That is the way to Heaven.

[Mona:] Exactly, that's it.

[Dhyan Mikael:] And then you get to where I am now. And by the way: there's also a prejudice about meditation. There's only one reason why you should meditate - and it's not because it takes you to Heaven. You should only meditate if you enjoy it. I meditate every morning because I can't imagine anything better. Meditation is not always nice, but when I ask myself: "Do I want to meditate today or not?

Yes, I have so much to do, and I still have to earn money and I still have to do this and that... But now I would really like to meditate." Then I do it. Even Swamiji... He says there is nothing more important than meditation, but he says: "It doesn't matter. Meditation should be done for pleasure, like a hobby. Just for fun." And if you live like that, you will find your way.

[Mona:] Exactly, yes.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Well, I'm living proof. I've always done everything wrong. I never had a plan in life. I just mentioned this example, after school. I made the most hair-raising decisions. Everyone else did it right. I always did everything wrong. I've made a mess of everything and I'm so lucky in my life.

I am so lucky. I can really only say it again and again: be true to yourself, follow your own joy, and then you will find your way to Heaven. Then you find the right things – for me it was meditation, for you it was something else - for a listener it might be something else again – but that's how you find your way.

[Mona:] Yes, and that's also important for me to say: I didn't do it the way you did. I did everything supposedly right at first, but that led to disaster. It's never too late.

The path, this return to yourself and to this inner joy and to this new experience, can begin at any time.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, really. At any time.

[Mona:] Every day that you can live like this is a gift.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes. And that's why my website isn't called "Samarpan Meditation". It doesn't say anything about it. I talk about it because I like to talk about my path. But what I actually want to talk about again and again is being true to yourself; finding your own path. I want to encourage to do that, you encourage to do that; to pick up this certainty that it works.

[Mona:] Yes, because I also feel, as you say and as we both say: in this true self that we all carry within us, which is ultimately one, that is joy. And that's why it's so important. We will never find joy and happiness and Heaven outside of it.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes.

[Mona:] Yes, it's that simple.

For me, it's round now, coherent, there's such joy. Thank you. Thank you, Mikael.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Yes, I'm always happy when we can talk to each other. That's a real joy for me.

[Mona:] Yes. Thank you, Mikael.

[Dhyan Mikael:] Thank you.