German Interview by Here-Now TV of August 2023

Complete text for reading along:

Devasetu: Dear Mikael, I am happy to be able to interview you here in your home. Thank you so much for taking the time and the energy to do this.

Dhyan Mikael: I thank you for coming out here so far. I think it's really great. I'm very happy that we can do this together today and I'm very very happy to take the time to do it. Thank you very much.

Devasetu: Mikael, is there a kind of an essence of what you want to convey to people?

Dhyan Mikael: It's like this: I talk about myself, but through it, I talk quite a lot about Soham, my spiritual Master, and about Swamiji, my Guru. I actually transport very much of their message, but my own... the essence of what comes from Mikael, from me, is actually that everybody has to find his or her own way. In every video that I make, no matter what I talk about, I try to always describe how I find my way with all what I have learned, with all that I have heard from Soham and from Swamiji, because...

You hear these wonderful things. One knows: it's all true. But it's of no use to just copy that. It's just of no use. Every single step, no matter what you do, must always come out of yourself somehow, and that's my main concern: to encourage people to always listen to themselves; that although they hear these wonderful messages coming from Swamiji or from Soham or what I am telling, they nevertheless always need to check: okay, and what am I doing now in this moment? What am I doing now? What fits me? What is coherent? What brings me joy? Because that is easily overlooked.

You listen to such a Saint or such a Master, and you think it's really great, and quite quickly you then start to do things just because you think they are good, but you yourself are not at that point at all. And then there's... then it's difficult. Then it hurts. That's, I think, my main essence, woven into all that, what I'm telling, over and over again, in every video.

Devasetu: Then I guess you definitely find it okay that, when one hears something from a teacher or Master, that one really only accepts for oneself that for which one feels completely open to, that where there is a resonance with. Along the lines of: okay, that's what he says, that's what that guy says, but I can't do anything with that.

Dhyan Mikael: I'm not just saying it's okay, I'm saying: you can't do it without that. So that's really the difficult thing about it. There is someone you worship, or... worship may not be the right word for a lot of people, but you know: he's telling the truth. You just know: what he says is true. And yet you hear something and think: I don't want that, I can't. And I have experienced it myself many times... many times is perhaps exaggerated, I would say more than once... again and again I have experienced that I found what which I had heard simply wrong, simply wrong.

There is an incident that I talked about in a video the other day, where Soham, 15 years ago I think it was, I don't know exactly, so long ago... where he gave me some advice. I talked to him about something that was already important to me in my life. It was about the relationship I had at that time, and how me and my girlfriend treat each other, and he said to me: "Mikael, don't pay attention to your girlfriend. Don't pay attention to her. Don't look at how she is doing. Look at yourself. Feel yourself. Feel how it is for you." I thought he was nuts. I thought "this can't be true." I was proud that I was so sensitive and so... that I could recognize so well what was good for my friend and what was good for her and what was not. I was really proud of that. And then he told me something like that. And for me it was clear: that's not true. He was my Master, but for me it was certain: that is simply not true. So, I didn't do it.

And it was out of the question at all for me that I would not be true to myself. I can't help it. I am... I don't know... One the one hand, I can surrender very well if it wants to happen out of myself, that has happened to me twice in this life, once with Soham, once with Swamiji... but at the same time I can only do what I resonate with. That's where my core message that you asked me about is coming from. And that's when I didn't listen to my Master.

And ten years later I found out for myself that what he had said was true after all; that this was the good way. But that had to come out of myself. So, the message is: it doesn't matter whether the Master is right or not. Only that with which I am in agreement, only that I can follow. By the way, Soham also says that. He says, "listen only to what you resonate with. If I say something you're not resonating with, forget it. Just forget it."

Devasetu: And today you see it differently? So, don't you think that when two people live closely together, that there is a certain flow in which both flow and where there simply is consideration for the other and caring for the other, in a natural way?

Dhyan Mikael: You are absolutely right. Caring for each other and consideration is quite natural. The only question is where it comes from. Back 15 years ago, when I told Soham how I do it with my girlfriend, that's when I wanted...that's when I needed something from her. I wanted her to be okay. I wanted to solve her problems. I didn't know myself at all. I didn't know what I needed. I didn't know what I was feeling either. I knew what she was feeling, what she needed. It was easy for me to act upon that; that was my guide. I think most people are familiar with that. And it leads to quite a lot of trouble.

At first glance you would think: yeah, that's great. But the thing is, if I base my actions on what's good for the other person, then I expect at the same time, whether I know it or not, that the other will do the same for me. Somebody has to take care of me or I'll die of thirst. And then two things happen. First, if I don't take care of myself, but take care of my partner... very gradually, without me noticing it, something inside me is dying of thirst. No one cares for me. My girlfriend can't take care of me, she doesn't know what I need. Of course, I don't know what she needs either, but sometimes we think we do. So, very slowly, you get unhappy and frustrated, and you expect, without being aware of it, that the partner should take care of you in return. And it's a very unpleasant thing. It's all unspoken, after all. So, most people do it that way, and most relationships don't work out, and that's the reason.

But when I start taking care of myself, looking at myself, feeling myself... What happened then in my life was that it took me ten years just to learn to feel how I am; who I am; and then to learn to live in such a way that I get what I need, and that I am well. That was a long process. And at some point during that process I was with myself, I was satisfied, full. I began to know myself; I began to learn what was good for me. I began to give myself attention, and I became more and more satisfied, more and more powerful, more and more full, bigger and bigger inside myself. At some point, I didn't need my girlfriend anymore. I didn't need anybody at all. Isn't this what people usually say? You know, when you... Normal people, normal lovers, they say, "I need you because I love you." That has nothing to do with love. The needing, that's true.

And what I discovered then, 10 years, 15 years later: when I don't need you anymore, then... and when I am full, when I am full with myself, with power, with energy, with God... then, when I don't need you, then love begins to flow. And love comes from an abundance. That which comes from lack, from "I need you," that is not love. But that is what people usually call love. And when you are there, when you are full, when you are satisfied, when the love starts flowing by itself even though you don't need anything: that is real love. Then what you just mentioned happens: then, taking care of each other, taking care of each other, is a very natural thing. You don't notice it at all, and it's not happening at my expense. That comes from me, quite naturally, out of my abundance. And I tell you: then, relationship becomes so easy, so simple, so natural. You don't need to discuss anything at all. You don't have to make arrangements. You don't have to talk about who does what. It all works by itself. But first you have to start looking at yourself, and usually we think: "I can't do that! That's being selfish! How am I supposed to be in a relationship like that...? There I have to consider the other person!"

But like I said, that's what everybody does, and then everybody depends on each other, and that's why relationships are so difficult and so complicated, you know. When I'm hungry and I'm taking care of you, and when you're hungry and you're taking care of me, we have to be very careful not to upset this fragile balance, because you're hungry and needy, and I'm needy too. And then it very quickly ends up in arguments, in misunderstandings, there has to be an unbelievable amount of discussion and analysis and arguing. But if you don't need anything from me, we just have a good time.

Devasetu: You mentioned that your partner didn't know or didn't catch what you needed. Does the Guru know, does the teacher know what the disciple needs?

Dhyan Mikael: The Guru, the Master, doesn't care about what the disciple needs. The Guru exemplifies just that, the Guru exemplifies what is inconceivable to the disciple. That's exactly where your question comes from: "Yeah but you can't! I can't start taking care of myself after all!" And the Guru, the Master, he exemplifies this; he rests only in himself. And what the disciple perceives is this energy that arises when someone really rests in himself and is really full, really full to the brim.

The Guru doesn't need to do anything, he doesn't need to do anything at all, he just sits in his fullness, in his being full, in his energy, and it just overflows. But that happens by itself. You only need to be near such a Guru, and by that I don't mean physical closeness, but if you are somehow emotionally connected through your own being with that, then it comes to you. He is in principle a model of how one really lives, however, that is unimaginable for all of us.

Devasetu: And does the Guru work through this role modeling, or is that always an energetic thing.

Dhyan Mikael: That is an energetic thing. He is of course also a role model, sure, but you have to be careful with that word, because it's not like the disciple realizes, "ah, this is how the Guru is, this is great, I'm going to imitate this now." That which the Guru really is, and what he embodies, the disciple cannot see this at all. The disciple sees that a little bit only 10, 20, 30 years later. At the beginning, the normal person can't recognize who he has in front of him at all. And then, very gradually, later, you become more and more grateful and more and more stunned at who you have in front of you, because you very gradually... the more you become like that yourself, the more you are able to realize, "wow, what a being!"

Devasetu: Is there actually someone in front of you?

Dhyan Mikael: Of course not. There's nobody there, of course. But I don't like to talk in this esoteric language because although ultimately, when you look at it analytically, it is true, but it is of no use to anybody. It is not practical, it is not a practical hint, to tell somebody: "there is nobody". That's not much use, in my experience. But it's an energetic thing.

It's like children learning from parents. Parents wouldn't really need to say anything at all. Children learn simply by how the parents are: the moods of the parents; how the parents deal with themselves and with each other; that energetic dance; how a person feels, you know: energetically, the aura, so to speak, as a person...that passes over to the children. That's why you can have people who are really very lost inside, but always say the right thing. They give their children everything that is good and right; they say the right things, send them to the right school. But if the father and mother are completely impoverished and parched inside, then that is exactly what the children learn. The children don't learn by listening, not at all. You can forget all that. You don't need to talk to the children. Of course you talk, but you don't need to teach them anything through words.

You can teach them only by you being yourself as you want the children to be. If you want to have happy children... the only thing you can do there is: be happy yourself. Then they pick up on that. By the way, the same is true for relationship. If you want your partner to be happy: the best, the very best thing you can do is not worry and care about her, but: become happy yourself. It feels wrong at the beginning, but that truly leaps over. And with the Guru, of course, it's even more so. There is this person who is what is unimaginable for us...who is full of God, who is, to speak with Jesus' words, who is full of the Holy Spirit. And you feel it. You just feel it. You can't explain it to yourself though. You don't know at all what's going on. You just realize: wow, what's going on here? It slowly passes over to you just by... by allowing such a person to hang around in your life, somehow, it's a little bit different with every person.

Devasetu: But you shouldn't expect anything to jump over, I think that can become an obstacle again.

Dhyan Mikael: Well... I would say that's not really a problem. Of course, in the beginning you expect all kinds of things. I mean, ultimately you come to a Guru because you yourself, often without really knowing, are desperate or simply searching and just don't know any further. And then you think: well, I'm at the end of my rope, then I'll just go for it. You don't think like that. It's automatic. And then, of course, you sit there with such a Master or with such a Guru, and... I actually never had any expectations. So, if I should just talk about myself, I would say: I had no expectations, and I was there anyway, and that's why it was so easy for me.

But what I observed, since 20, 23 years with Soham, also with Swamiji: of course, people have expectations. And then of course these are not being fulfilled, quite clearly. Expectations can't be met; it just doesn't work. And then they argue with him, and some even go away. You actually have a true point there. With expectations one should not come, but naturally, one can only be the way one is. But the expectations, they are being taken away from you one way or another. Either you leave the Guru again, because you think: "this doesn't work, my expectations are not being fulfilled". Or you stay anyway, and very gradually, very gradually, the expectations then are being removed. And that's the good way: if you can stay with the Master, if you can stay with the Guru, even though you are constantly disappointed, then you are really lucky.

Devasetu: Does the motivation with which or from which you approach a Guru matter? So, if I say, for example, "I already live reasonably happily, but with a Guru I would perhaps live even happier," what do you think? Is that weird?

Dhyan Mikael: I don't know anyone who has ever done that. I don't think it's possible either. You can... I think...you asked earlier what is happening between Guru and disciple; whether that is an energetic thing. And it is an energetic thing. And it's almost like you can't approach a Guru or Master at all, if it's not meant to be. I want to compare that, because maybe many listeners know that, with the times when you fall in love. It's not that you're sitting at home in the evening after work, you have a good life and think: "yes, but now a girlfriend, that wouldn't be bad either. So, let's see with whom I could fall in love with... or maybe with that one there, I like here. Yes, I think I'm falling in love with her now".

Everybody laughs when they hear that, because everybody knows: that's not how it works. That's just not how it works. If you're looking for a girlfriend, you won't find her. All women look the other way. And at some point, when you just sit around somewhere, not suspecting anything bad, you meet a woman, you don't think anything at all about it, and bang you're in love, and then there's nothing better than being together with her now. So, it works like somebody decides: you two come together now, and then this happens, and you're not even asked. That's the way it is, isn't it? And it's like that with a Guru even more. You can't decide, "am I going there or not?" It doesn't happen. I don't think it's ever happened on this planet like that. I can't imagine that at all.

And when the lightning strikes you and you are touched by a Master or Guru, and then you are drawn to that, it's usually that you think, "I'm nuts! What am I doing here? I can't surrender myself to a Guru like that!" But you do it anyway. It's like with a woman. When you fall in love with a woman, you think, "for God's sake, this can't work out, this is the wrong one...", but you are in love and you have no choice. It's the same with a Guru.

Devasetu: Who or what brings people together, as couples or also with a teacher or Guru?

Dhyan Mikael: That's not important. We can't understand that. I mean, we can analyze it now, and then of course there are words for it, but I think it's interesting to talk about what's really relevant and helpful; maybe to understand what's happening to me, or to understand what's good for me or what's bad for me when I have a choice. But that one... you don't have a choice. But I think it's good to talk about it, that's why I keep talking about my life and what happened with me and Soham and with me and Swamiji, how that came about... so that other people hear it and maybe, they understand their own lives, and their own feelings and the forces pulling on them a little bit better. But not analytically, like: what's behind all that... in reality, nobody can explain it...

But to look at it simply like this: "ah, it's like that for him too, well, then it seems to be normal kind of normal." I think that is very helpful to know that you're not alone there with this crazy "having a Guru" or something. I mean, ultimately, life pulls us in the right direction, against our resistance, despite our stupidity, it just pulls us very gradually in the direction where we need to go. And that applies to being in love, whether you are falling in love with a partner or a Master or Guru. Every single relationship you have is important on this path, and that's why you don't have a choice at all. That's all you really need to know.

Devasetu: Did you experience a time when in relationship, "I" and "you" disappeared, that is, that only a "we" was left; that there was no more separation to be felt?

Dhyan Mikael: Yes, that is an interesting point. We were talking earlier about taking care of each other, and how I used to take care of my partner, and then learned to arrive at myself. And now what happens is a caring or a responding to each other, a dancing with each other, but that comes from a completely different direction. And with what you're asking right now, it's very similar. I know very well, from the relationships I used to have, that this "I" and "you" is disappearing. Of the "you" I can't say anything, you'd have to ask my ex-partner, but of the "me" I can say: the "me" disappears, that disappeared, and if I'm completely honest, the "me" was never really there in the first place. There was no one who knew himself. There was no one who knew what he wanted. There was nobody who knew how he felt.

There was just ignorance. I had such an easy time adjusting to my partner because I had no idea what I actually wanted. But to feel what my partner wants… I was great at that. And then after seven years I couldn't stand it with her anymore and wondered why. Yes, well, you have to look closely, because otherwise you misunderstand what I'm going to say about it now. That which most people know, this wonderful dissolving and merging and being one... how do I say this now in the best way...

Devasetu: It's not actually merging, there's no separation in reality.

Dhyan Mikael: Yeah yeah...you know, it's like this... it's like this: you meet somebody and you fall in love, and in the very beginning there's this magical time that you have together. You understand each other without words, you know each other. You might also know that, "wow, I know this person". I mean, you have never met, you don't know much about the other person. But it's magical. And that's the time when you don't know the other person, when you're in complete ignorance without expectations... it's way too early for expectations, it just happens by itself... and there, God meets Himself. That's such a very early stage, where the brain didn't have time to develop expectations, to develop dreams, that's when you get a taste of it. Then everything is easy. And then that disappears very very quickly. That which is called the infatuation phase, that disappears very very quickly, because then very soon these expectations set in, the dreams, the hopes and the evaluations, the judgments. Suddenly you don't find everything so great about the other person. And then it disappears, this God-experience. So, that's one thing. Maybe you could... I don't know if that's what you meant earlier with this merging.

And then there's something else, though. When you live together and that which I described at the beginning: when you're actually needy, and you enter into a relationship with this neediness, and with the hope towards the other person that she will make me happy... so it was for me always... of course you don't know about it. And the partner hopes the same about you. And it's like I'm totally focused on the partner, and the partner is totally focused on me. Expectations are focused on me, and my expectations are totally focused on the partner. I do everything for my partner, in the hope, and this is the unconscious part, that it will make me happy. My partner does the same thing. You're totally fixated on each other. That's not a good thing, but that's what we usually call a relationship and love.

And in this being focused on each other, you can definitely experience that in such a way that this "I" and the "you" merge. It's like when two mirrors look at each other: there is nobody anymore, there is only reflection. There is no substance, there is nobody, but there is not God, there is just wanting and hoping and neediness: two beggars begging from each other, you could say. I think that's what many experience, and it doesn't feel so bad at first. It can also be romantic. But it doesn't carry. At some point, usually after a few years, at some point it doesn't go well anymore.

If I then... well, the relationship that I experience today is different, though. What I experience there today is... Let me put it this way: At some point, when you've been on the spiritual path for a while, what's called "I" begins to dissolve a little bit. You trust more and more in life. You want less and less yourself. You are just more and more content, by yourself. And to the extent that you become more content and let yourself be carried by life, this I-feeling disappears, more and more. You are simply carried. If you don't constantly think about that you want something or that you have to do something, there's not much of an "I" left. And if your partner feels the same way, then there are two people, who both don't have much "me" left, and when they dance together, let me put it this way: it's not that then, because we love each other so much, the "I" and the "you" disappear, as in this first case, where we are so fixated on each other. But two people come together who have both... both of them have already lost the "I" a little bit. And that's why it then also becomes so easy and so beautiful, because the "I" is no longer constantly in the way. But the "me" doesn't disappear because I love this person so much. I can't say today: "I love my partner so tremendously". I just love. And I'm just totally touched by her, just like that, I don't know why.

Devasetu: Is sexuality an important link in relationship?

Dhyan Mikael: Well, you usually think you need links in relationship. I want to start there. Before I talk about the link "sexuality", I would like to talk about the link in general. And I know this well. One usually tries to find commonalities that one shares with each other, and in a normal relationship it is also very important. I will now put it rather clearly: there are two people together who have no idea about themselves, and to be quite honest: if I don't know myself, I can't know the other either, that's just not possible; if I can't feel my own nature, I can't feel you either... and then you need links. Hobbies you share, or habits you share, or everyday life you kind of share. And there, sex is a great thing. There, sex is a great link. And when I got close to myself and... you know... I want to jump back very briefly to the beginning of the interview where you asked me...where we were talking about this advice that Soham gave me which I ignored. And I told you, that before that, I always looked to my partner for what she needed. That was kind of our link. I look after her, and she looks after me. And then, I started to get to know myself. More and more I could feel myself. I was just looking at myself.

And you know what happened then? At some point, many years later, I wasn't even together with my then girlfriend anymore, then I suddenly realized... I was together with a woman, and I only paid attention to myself, that had already become my nature at that time. I didn't think about it much at all then... and I felt how I... I couldn't explain it to myself, but I knew just what's right now, what I like now, and I always realized: this is exactly what's right for her as well. Whenever I've done something for me... it felt to me like I was doing it for me only, just for me, and it was just the right thing for her as well. And then I experienced that over and over and over again. The more I rested in myself and just felt myself, the more... without my being able to explain it, only those things happened through my own desires or my own impulses, through my own energy, which were just right for my partner I was with at the time... it just fit, as if I wasn't able to image anything else... as if I couldn't want anything other than what fits for everybody anyway.

And now... we were talking about connecting links. When I am with myself, and when I feel myself in this way as I just described, and when I am completely resting only in myself; when I don't have my focus on other people at all anymore, there arises this connection to the fellow human beings which doesn't come from the mind, doesn't come from looking what the other person needs, I rest only in myself. But I am connected to the people who are around me in a way that is inexplicable. That's a connection that you can only perceive, that you can observe happening, the effects of that. You don't think about the other person at all and what he might need. You are completely with yourself. But everything that happens out of it by itself... fits again and again for everybody in the most amazing way. And that is a link which is truly incredible.

So much for the link. And if you live like that with yourself, then these links to the partner become completely irrelevant. Then you don't even think about it. You're just connected to him or her. It's like this: you're connected to yourself, and then if you have a partner in your life then you now also have the ability to only, just be connected to him or her, but without all this psychological thinking or looking at it or now looking at what are we doing together... it just happens. And then, sex also becomes very nice. Sex becomes beautiful when you don't need it as a link anymore. When you do things together because they are important, because you need them, because you want them, because the relationship needs them, then it always adds some kind of bitter taste. It always adds a burden.

And in sexuality you can feel this burden very clearly. There, the pain that arises from it is particularly clear. And it's like, you can totally love each other, you know, you just want the best for each other, but when you're living sexuality with each other and there's this agenda underneath it... if you feel like that's important that we have a nice sexuality for our relationship, as a connector, or because it's important to me, then it's like that's poison. That spoils sexuality. And if you don't need all that anymore and then experience sexuality, then that's free of it. Then there is no... then it has no function anymore. Every link is important, it has a function. And if sexuality has no more importance, has no more function between two people, then for the first time you can really have fun with it.

Devasetu: We have now talked about needs. Do you distinguish between natural needs, that is needs which are clear: man needs warmth, and food and drink and contact also. Is sexuality to a certain extent also such a kind of natural need?

Dhyan Mikael: So, I think Swamiji is so great, because he talks about these things so beautifully, and he was... I think he was with 11 or 14 Gurus in the Himalayas. And they told so many crazy things. And one of these Gurus talked about this very thing. He said: the body of the male, for him it is important that he has an orgasm about once a month. The testicles are just glands, and once a month the body should have an orgasm. He doesn't talk about sex.

And with the Guru it happened like this: usually at full moon, once a month, he stood in a very cold river. He meditated the whole night in this ice-cold river; not in order to have an orgasm, he didn't care at all. He was meditating there. And he said that he then sometimes experienced it in the river. It happened all by itself. When the body needs it, it just has an orgasm. It's like when the body has to sneeze, then it just sneezes. You don't need to plan that. And when your body needs an orgasm, then you will have a wonderful dream at night and in the morning, you realize: I must have had an orgasm tonight. That's how it works. And then it's all fine again. Then it's all fine for a few weeks, the body is quiet, and when it needs it again, then you will have an orgasm somehow, you don't have to worry about that.

But what we make of it is of course something completely different. Sexuality with a different person is a completely different matter. You don't need that. But you know, we were just talking about links. Normally we are very needy people. We have never learned to feel. We have never learned to take care of ourselves. We project all our needs onto someone else. And then you need all sorts of vehicles for how those needs are to be met. Of course, they are never fulfilled, but we try. And sexuality is right up there at the top place. That's why everybody talks about sex. That's why... when you sell a book about sexuality, it almost always becomes a bestseller, because everybody jumps on it. But it has nothing to do with reality. That only arises from this neediness of people. If you don't have that anymore, then sexuality can be something quite beautiful, really beautiful. But it is not important.

So, for the body it is not important. The body needs air. The body needs water, food, and we human beings usually need a certain amount of connection with other people. But even there you have to be quite careful how to express it, because that connection can also take place in many different ways, you don't have to live together. I feel more connected with people today than ever before, and I live more withdrawn than ever before. But what people normally mean by sexuality, that's not necessary at all. That is not a natural need of the body, and it is where most lies are told, by everybody, even by recognized spiritual people, even by scientists and also by doctors, and we lie to ourselves all the time. It is not necessary. It's just not necessary.

Devasetu: You have made me curious. Did the Guru, this Guru, also tell how it is for the female body or for women?

Dhyan Mikael: The Guru said something very interesting about women and men. He did not talk about whether sexuality would be necessary for the female body. I would be very surprised if he said something like that. I actually can't imagine it. Let me put it this way if sex with a man or with another woman was necessary for the female body, the Gurus would talk about it I am sure, and they don't.

But this Guru said something quite interesting. He said: women can get satisfaction in sex. Sex makes women satisfied. Women can really enjoy sex. And he says: men can't. Men do not achieve satisfaction in sex. The body attains orgasm, and we call "coming" satisfaction. But he says, men don't attain satisfaction through sex, and I was so touched when he said that. And then I took a close look and I realized: that's true. You have sex with a woman as a man, you come, it feels great, and three minutes later you're thinking about your job or something else, you're already somewhere else, you're not at all more satisfied, you are not in bliss for days or weeks - not at all. If you are completely honest... sometimes it's like you could do it again the very next day, or with another woman, if you're completely honest. But most men would never admit that.

And you know, it's also natural that way. The woman, she's supposed to get pregnant. She has sex, and if everything goes well, according to nature that is, she also becomes pregnant, and then it's all well for the woman. But men, they shall not be satisfied. They are supposed to always try again and again... I'm not talking about men now, what they really want, but I'm talking about how nature has arranged it, our animal nature so to speak... I'm talking about our animal nature. Not that we misunderstand each other here. Men are made in such a way that they are never satisfied by sexuality, because if they were satisfied, this game of nature would no longer work. Then the men would be satisfied and would not care about women and sex, and then there would not be enough offspring for the species, in that case for mankind.

But nature really set it up that way that men are not satisfied, and that's why men want all the time, because they don't get it. They don't understand that these are simply the hormones of this animal body. The body just is always ready. It's always ready, you're never really satisfied. Sex is always an issue for you as a man. You're always somewhere latently ready, if you're honest.

And then you take it personally and say, "I want sex." Men, after all, are so quick in telling women, "I need sex." None of that is true. That is simply the willingness of this body. Nature just made a man's body ready all the time. It's not bad, it's not a problem at all. This willingness doesn't have to be fulfilled by any woman, that's all lies. Yes, that's what this Guru was talking about, and that surprised me very much that this Guru high up in the Himalayas is telling such truths. But as I said, I don't think women need sexuality. But I don't know.

Devasetu: Attraction is definitely there, between men and women, also from the part of women. That's kind of obvious.

Dhyan Mikael: Yes! And you know, if attraction is there, and both want, then sex is the most beautiful thing in the world, why not. There's nothing wrong with sex. If the woman is ready and the man is ready and you can share pleasure with each other, that's a wonderful thing. But to think, "I need this," that's a whole different game. First of all, it's not true, and secondly, it spoils the joy of sex.

Devasetu: Talking so openly about sex, do you also have experience with sex in a tantric setting, I mean in the sense that it's no longer about getting an orgasm or achieving some goal, but where the focus is really on being with each other and feeling each other and merging.

Dhyan Mikael: Yes, I'm very happy to say something about that. I have experience there, but not like you think. I told you earlier about how I discovered one day that if I only look at myself, when I only feel myself, that then... as if through myself I can automatically perceive what my partner needs without thinking of her. I feel only myself. And during this time, I discovered something else, at the same time. First, I noticed that this made sexuality more and more beautiful, just more and more beautiful. And then at some point I realized: I don't want an orgasm anymore. And that was so beautiful for me, this freedom from "wanting to have an orgasm".

I just said, nature has arranged it so that the male body... that is not limited to humans, that is true for all mammals... that it always wants. That is quite important and normal for nature. And I discovered: I don't want to come at all. I enjoyed it so much, this being together. I didn't want that to stop. I think that can be called a tantric experience.

But I also want to say something else about it. The experience I had, it came from being so satisfied, that I then realized: I don't even want to have an orgasm anymore. And that made being with the woman so beautiful. That's Tantra. Truth.

Tantric sex is a whole different story, that's a whole different story. That's: "I want to experience even more intimacy with the woman through sex, that's why I'm getting into the habit of having an orgasm so it works properly." I want something. There's this agenda; a sacred agenda though... when you offer a workshop, everybody thinks this is great: to be even more intimate with each other. That's not what sex is made for. Do you understand what I mean? There is no tantric sex arising. There arises something that looks like tantric sex. Fortunately, I have never experienced something like that, but I know some people who have, and for some of them it took many years to really understand what they were experiencing. And it was not good for them.

What I experienced... I rested in myself. I was satisfied. I didn't want anything else. I realized: I don't even want an orgasm anymore. And from that I experienced a wonderful intimacy with this woman. I didn't want anything, and then I could be intimate. If I go to a seminar or to a woman and want to experience intimacy with her, that can't work. I want to experience intimacy with her. Something like that has to happen by itself. Do you understand? You have to start with yourself. When you come to yourself, when you rest within yourself, your life becomes tantra.

Tantra has nothing to do with sex. Tantra is a word for God, for ultimate Truth. When you rest within yourself and come more and more into yourself, then you experience that you are one with everything; then everything becomes beautiful, even sex; even being with another person. That is tantra. But to want tantra is not possible. If you... that's a contradiction. That is, if you go to a seminar to want to learn tantric sex, then actually it can only go wrong. Probably I'm really on the slippery slope now, and probably some people are screaming: how can he say something like that! But I feel very very strongly about that.

If you want to experience sex like that... the way to get there leads to yourself, only to yourself. As long as you look to the woman or man as the vehicle of your fulfillment, you'll never experience Tantra. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. And then... when you are so much resting within yourself that you don't need anything from the other, nothing, not even intimacy, not even intimacy, all these sacred things... when you don't need anything anymore, you start experiencing, exactly that for the first time. Then you look back and think: what kind of sex did I have before, for God's sake? What were those encounters? But you'll only experience it if you don't want anything more. And that's why there can't be tantric sex except when it just happens by itself, just because you're totally with yourself.

Devasetu: Sex always happens best by itself. You can maybe have an attitude, a playful attitude, and if there's just openness there, and just acceptance: whatever wants to happen between the two bodies or between the two people.

Dhyan Mikael: Yes. I told you about this time where I started to not want to have an orgasm at all and just rest in myself, and through that, I somehow automatically knew what the partner wanted, and I was... You know, that was a time when I... where I didn't care at all what would happen with a woman. I met a woman who I liked, fell in love with, had a crush on, and I really wanted to meet her, and I found it totally great when it then came to it that we really meet and have a coffee and I could really get close to her for once. And at the same time, I didn't have an agenda.

By agenda, I mean I didn't have a plan. I didn't want to... of course, I was totally ready to sleep with her, I just found her totally beautiful and was attracted, of course I was ready for that. But I didn't care if it would happen or not. I just enjoyed how I felt, and that energy and that attraction, I just enjoyed that. And if somehow a sexual encounter came out of that, then that was beautiful. And if it didn't arise, that was also beautiful. Then you just enjoy what is. Then sex is beautiful when it happens, but it's not so special and unique anymore, simply because everything that happens is something you enjoy. And then, then sex also becomes really nice and easy and natural.

Devasetu: Does it always have to be from both sides, this open attitude, or is that enough, if that's from one, for the one who can then just enjoy it a lot.

Dhyan Mikael: Interesting question, good question. It's like this: at that time, I had encounters with people who felt similar to me, and they were very beautiful encounters, where even later there was nothing that tarnished that beauty. There was nothing left, even if we had not then come together as a couple. We still love each other today, so to speak. But then there were also encounters, and I wasn't aware of that at the time, it was all very new to me... I had just gotten to know myself.

And then there were encounters where I realized afterwards, sometimes years later: yes, for her it wasn't like that; she wasn't in this enjoyment without hoping for something. And then there remains a pain, and this pain also makes me not enjoy it... So, these days, I could not have such an encounter. It's not possible for me to be at peace within myself, not wanting anything, and meet with a woman who feels differently and I still have joy because I just feel her. You know, I would be hurting myself there. How do you... you know, this can't work at all.

So, to answer your question, that's not possible. I guess what is possible, like back then when I was a beginner, just discovering all this, is to have an experience with such a person and totally enjoy it, but at some point, you feel, maybe not until the next day, but usually already at some point during the meeting: "oops... but she feels different". And then it's not nice, not for me either, it's not possible.

Devasetu: Is that also because it's just different for women, because when women just get pregnant as a result of sex, then it's kind of natural that an attachment to the partner happens, because he's also supposed to maybe help raise the child.

Dhyan Mikael: Of course, I can't say anything about that because I'm a man. What I can say is that it's just as essential for the woman to be with herself and only with herself, and not to think about tomorrow, only think about herself, and then feel... you don't know what is important. You just feel the moment, and out of that comes the right thing for yourself. And that's equally important for men and women. I very much feel that women experience sexuality quite differently from men, but I can't... I'm not competent to say anything about that, because I'm a man in this life.

But when the woman is with herself... the man doesn't need to know anything about that either. It's the woman's job. That's the beauty of it, when I'm with myself and the woman is with herself. I feel myself, and the better I can do that, the better I take care of myself, and everything is good. And when the woman does the same and feels herself, she just makes sure that it goes the way she needs it to go. And then, automatically, only the intersection that is optimal for both happens. And as I said: then everything becomes relatively simple, simply beautiful, uncomplicated.

Devasetu: Perhaps now a completely different topic. Is everything over with death?

Dhyan Mikael: Great question! You ask great questions. I want to tell you two stories about that. So first, I have to say that I'm a totally unesoteric person. I never cared about any spiritual things, all my life. I don't know anything about past lives. I can't see past lives either, or anything like that. I'm very normal, a real bore. But I've experienced a few things that are interesting. I was with Soham, after all... and I still am but I don't live with him "on the road" anymore, and I met him 23 years ago. You know, it was like this, you have to think of it like this: I was a man who had no spiritual ambitions. I was not looking for a Master. I was not thinking, "I am seeking enlightenment, and he is it!" At some point I sat in his Satsang, by chance, I didn't even know what Satsang was. I didn't know him. I had read about him in a book, and then I was in Munich, 23 years ago then, and I actually wanted something quite different there. I was visiting friends. And the author of the book, Pyar Troll, she wrote about Samarpan back then, and I thought that was totally great, and I wanted to meet her. I wanted to see what Satsang was like with her. And it didn't turn out to be.

And then I happened to notice that Soham, who was called Samarpan at that time, was in town, and then I just went there. And then I sat in Satsang and I didn't know what to do there. I found it all a bit strange because the people there... and everybody's crowding in... and everybody is waiting for Soham... and then I had such an interesting inner experience sitting there when he entered the room. He came in, this totally casual American, he shuffled to the front, sat down on his chair, all totally unspiritual. He looked completely normal, just like everyone else. And I was overcome by such well-being, such peace inside of me. I didn't associate that with him at all either.

And from that day onwards, I just traveled along with him, just like that. I didn't think much of it at all, that was completely normal. I mean, other people are banging their heads: "What are you doing, you don't know him at all! You're throwing your whole life away and now you're traveling with him, what are you doing?" For me it felt totally normal, as if I had known him forever. Like I was just waiting for this. And I was so much in resonance with Soham. I felt so comfortable there. I understood him. I knew what he was talking about, even though I had never heard the things before. I was then not only his disciple, but also his crew member, his servant, and I understood what he needed, what he wanted.

And at some point, I spoke to him and said, you... Years later I said, "I don't understand this, this connection, this resonance between us, I understand you, I know what you want, I know what you are talking about, how is that possible?" And he said, "oh, we have been together so many times before," he said. And when he said that, I could feel: "yes, that's how it is". I have no memories myself. I am not a past-life person. But when he said that, I knew, "yes, that's right. That's just true. I'm not here for the first time with this soul. I was waiting for him, and then I finally found him again," that's how it felt later. Yes, now, 20 years later, I can say it like that. At that time, I didn't think anything like that. It happened automatically out of the depth of my soul, so to speak, of which of course I had no idea at that time.

And something similar, even more intense, happened with Swamiji. I was with Soham then, after all, and I was happy and content and of course didn't look for anything at all, certainly not a Guru. And there was this one day, five and a half years ago today, and we had had a break, a Satsang break. And a week later Soham and I met again at the next retreat. And we were sitting together on the eve of the first Satsang, we had dinner together, and then he told me that in the meantime, he had been contacted by Swamiji's people, they had given him his autobiography, told him about this Guru, and of course, Soham didn't know anything about him until then either. He was invited to go to India and meet him there. And it was totally amazing. Soham told me about it just normally. He didn't say, "oh Mikael, it's unbelievable what happened to me, imagine that...". Nothing of the sort.

He was sitting there, and he just told me, "guess what happened, here, look..." and as he's talking, an energy comes over me... and as I said, I am a totally unspiritual person, totally unesoteric. I am not looking for such experiences. So, I had such an energy in me, as if this Guru was driving into me. And I was sitting there, and... like I said, I always stress that I'm so normal actually, because I... I closed my eyes, this energy came to me, I start crying, and I thought to myself, "this, this moment, is what I have been waiting for so many lifetimes. Life upon life I have been waiting for this moment where I find him again." That's how I felt. And since then, I have been with Swamiji. I understand every word what he says. It is completely normal for me what he says. I understand everything. That's why I'm talking about it now. Like I know him through and through.

And he says the same thing: the Gurus he talks about in his autobiography, they explained to Swamiji in the first place, who he is and what he is going to do here in this life. And they explained to him that there are thousands of souls who have been with him for many hundred years and are now waiting for this time that we are now in, where Swamiji finally brings the tool for liberation, the tool where we can all discover our soul, discover God, discover Heaven, us ordinary people in society, you, me... the time where he found that, this meditation, and is now bringing it into society. All these souls, and I am one of them, have been waiting for this life of Swamiji where he can bring that to all of us. And that's what I felt there.

You know, I'm a totally unesoteric person, I don't know anything about "past lives," and there I was sitting, crying, thinking, "Finally! Since lives over lives, I was waiting for it". This is what it felt like. That's what I know about death and other lives. Death plays no role at all for us as beings, for us as what we really are: as soul, as consciousness. The body dies, but we then take on a new body. But that is something which I cannot report from my own experience like that. I know it is like this, but I can't say anything about that from my own experience. But I know that this is not my first time here, I know that.

Devasetu: So, I have already heard the opinion or the attitude that although such memories exist, they do not belong to one specific person, it is not that "one" has it, but that they simply are like from a large pool, and that one therefore cannot really speak of "one's own" earlier lives, but simply: there are memories, sure, but who has them now, and who remembers them now, that is something quite different, so it is another question.

Dhyan Mikael: Yeah, you're probably right. But also here I would like to say exactly the same thing what I said earlier already: for me, only that is relevant what is of practical use for me. And if such a memory comes to me in this life, today, then it is my memory at that moment. It comes to me because I am supposed to be doing something with it now, today, in this life. This remembrance, it's an energy that comes to me, inspiration that comes to me, a signpost that comes to me, something that is relevant to what I have to do. That's why it comes to me. Now where it really comes from... who knows? But for me... as it comes to me, it feels like it's mine. In the end, you're right. We are like an ant in a big anthill. We are all one. We are one. We are simply one.

And that's what you learn... no, you don't learn that, you feel it more and more, more and more. With the years, it just becomes so normal, and you feel it downright. But whether it's... where the memory really comes from, scientifically speaking, I don't really care. But ultimately, you're right. But I think it is always quite good to have the focus on the practical benefit, and it feels like it's my memory; like I've been roaming around for 800 years wandering from body to body, waiting for this life, where this is finally happening.

Devasetu: For me, "soul" is a bit of a difficult word, because I don't know what is meant by it. I just... I don't see a picture there. I don't have any associations with it. "Soul"... I just don't know. I just take it as a word but I don't understand it.

Dhyan Mikael: One of the reasons I like making videos so much is because I like translating so much. I am so taken with what I hear and read from Swamiji, but I see all around me how the people don't understand him. I then translate him into our Christian psyche. And "soul" is such a thing. We have the word "soul" also in the Western part of the word. I am an engineer, and when you look at a rope... the soul of a rope is the innermost winding of the rope, that is, what is completely inside the rope, that which cannot be seen from the outside. That is the soul of a rope. And so, the word soul denotes that which is in us human beings, our innermost core, that which cannot be described and which cannot be seen from the outside. Soul, the word soul, is actually only a paraphrase of something. But then we have no reference for it. It's just as you say: we have no emotional reference to this word "soul".

I like to talk about Jesus so much, because even for people who are not Christian at all, these words of Jesus are... I was never really Christian either, but I grew up in this culture, and I always notice how the words of Jesus, when I hear them, touch me. This has nothing at all to do with the Catholic or Protestant Church, this has nothing at all to do with any church. There is something handed down in this culture. In this crazy, terrible culture, surely this whole truth of Jesus has somehow been preserved.

And Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit. Jesus speaks of the Father, a God who is far away. In the Live Chat yesterday, I talked about this. And then there is the son. That's God coming closer, and you meet him in the form of the Guru or the Master, or... Jesus was a Guru, was a Master. First, God is something quite diffuse, and then you meet a medium of God, that's the Guru or a teacher, whatever. From that you then gradually learn about that which you perceive in yourself, that what constitutes the Master and the Guru also. That's how you started the interview, with the question: what constitutes that. And then you discover the same energy that drew you to the Guru, you then discover that within yourself. It is as if you experience God within yourself. And when you no longer suspect the God somewhere out there and also no longer experience God in the Master, but in yourself, that is the Holy Spirit, this God-energy, which is always just that; that which I can feel in myself.

And with that, I have an emotional connection. I never knew before what was meant by Holy Spirit, but now that I myself experience how I slowly come to myself, and am simply carried by something which I cannot name... now I know: yes, that's what Jesus meant! That's what he was talking about. Jesus... At the time of Pentecost, we celebrate that the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples. Then the disciples, too, were able to feel what also Jesus is all about: the Holy Spirit, that which has actually always been in us, and suddenly we can finally feel it. It's not that the Holy Spirit wasn't in us. It has always been in there, otherwise we wouldn't be able to live at all. But suddenly we can also feel it, perceive it, experience it.

And that is what Swamiji means by "soul". That, that inner essence, that Holy Spirit, which then takes over our life and henceforth governs everything. In the same way, Swamiji speaks about the soul. He says: then the soul becomes your Guru. You then no longer have a Guru on the outside. Your soul becomes the Guru. The Holy Spirit begins to rule in you, to live in you and then all is well. Then only good things will happen. Maybe you can relate more to the word "Holy Spirit". But ultimately it means life itself... that you begin to perceive that within you.

Devasetu: I was once told by someone who speaks Hindi that the original word is actually also very difficult to translate and that you could possibly also say consciousness to it; and the fact that "soul" had been chosen as translation back then, a word which was already in use by Christianity with a certain definition, that might be the reason why it doesn't quite carry the meaning that it should express.

Dhyan Mikael: It's like this: soul is a very old word. And the Gurus and also Jesus spoke in words that tried to describe something for which there were no words at that time. At that time there was no psychology. Even the word "thought" did not exist back then. Everybody had thoughts, but there was no word for it. They were not so clear about what they were actually hearing. Jesus called it the devil. When Jesus talked about the thoughts that speak to you... he said "devil" to it, because the word "thoughts" did not exist back then.

And it is the same with "soul". The word "consciousness" did not exist back then. Consciousness was then translated as "Holy Spirit", or soul. Today we say consciousness to it, and for us the word soul is empty, we prefer to say consciousness. And these old words of the Gurus are then perhaps translated into the old words of the Western world. Maybe that's where it comes from. But ultimately it is consciousness. Consciousness is God, the Holy Spirit. All the same, of course.

Devasetu: Before closing, I have a question about meditation itself, which I am also personally interested in. So, I don't know all your videos, and maybe you've talked about it there, but I know a part of your videos, and you haven't talked about it there, and that is the collective meditation. So, the way I understood the teachings on Samarpan Meditation, and what Swamiji also says about it, it is recommended that you meditate together once a week, either in a group, and if that's not possible, online for instance over Zoom, using the Internet. I don't know... I just noticed that you never talked about it there.

Dhyan Mikael: Me too! And just the second to last video I made about this, just about this. "The Blessing of Community" is the title of the video. There I talk about how important it is to be part of a community in this world looking in the same direction. And that's true, I haven't talked about that before that. There's so much that wants to be said, and it just takes time. But, yes, it's really like this: I meditate alone in the morning to rest within myself. And then it's important to meditate once a week, or more often if you want to, with others because in this meditation... this is again exactly the same thing that we were discussing earlier with relationship, with relationship, with sexuality...when I rest within myself, then I have the true connection with the other people. And then when I meditate with other people, things happen that you can't perceive that you can't describe either, but they are important.

The true community, the true connectedness with each other arises in meditation. And I will talk about this more often in the future. But it cannot be done alone. And the reason is simple: this meditation is, after all, the tool for us human beings who live in the very normal society. It is one thing if you, as a human being, move to the Himalayas, sit down in some cave and henceforth live there, far away from society. But I don't have the impulse for that, fortunately. I don't have the impulse to do it. There aren't that many caves there either.

So, there has to be a solution for us normal people, in society, who have a job, who have a marriage, who have children and relatives and parents. And we live in a society... all around us are people, who have nothing at all of this kind of consciousness, of God, of this turning inward, and when they hear something about it, they think: that is just crazy, or even harmful or dangerous or disreputable or somehow very very suspicious. And many people may know that from own experience: when you start to take care of yourself or when you start to meditate, then you have within yourself these voices of society saying, "What are you doing anyway! There are so many things that are more important! Take care of the real problems in your life first!" We have this energy in us that keeps pulling us out of meditation. You sit down and you're up there in the crown chakra for not even ten seconds, and you're back in some thoughts. And these thoughts I have, and these thoughts, they come from society.

And when I connect with other people who have the same challenge that I have; who want to turn inward, more and more inward, but who are constantly being pulled back outward by their own thoughts and by the energy of the world, then it is supportive. Then, in this crazy world that only pulls me outward and that only expects me to put all of my attention outward...then I have a couple of people around me who are trying to do the same thing as I do. And that is crucial. You can't do it without that. You can't live in society and walk this path alone. You can't.

I haven't talked about that yet, but I make videos for exactly that reason: so that people who are in their ordinary lives, and who may be the only person they know who has somehow started to go inside... that they find reinforcement; that's why Soham gives Satsang; that's why Swamiji does everything he does; to reach out to these people and offer support, offer fellowship, offer connection. And that's why Swamiji says: once a week meditate together. That works over Zoom, that works in a room, if you are fortunate enough to be able to attend a meditation group once a week.

It works even if you are sitting all alone somewhere. You don't need a computer to do it. The point is not that you sit by the computer that connects you with other people via Zoom, and then you stare at the screen while you meditate. No. It's about sitting down once a week and just knowing and feeling all these other people who are also meditating. If you have that in consciousness, then you are already connected with those people; it is about you knowing: I am not alone. I meditate now, Monday evening 19:30 o'clock I can sit in some cave, without a computer, but I know: there are these thousands of people who are now also meditating, and with them I meditate now. And then I feel the power of this community, and this energy.

It doesn't need an internet connection; it doesn't need Zoom. But it helps, of course. We're humans, and for most people it's totally helpful to turn on the computer and then turn on Zoom and see the others, and hear them speak and to know: everybody else is hearing this now too. For most people, it's just a help. And for many people, going to the group, knowing the people there, talking to them, hugging them, loving them, is a total help. And this support we need in this world, it is crucial.

Devasetu: Maybe we can mention: every day at 7 pm except Mondays there is a meditation which is also offered online over the internet, by the German Swamiji friends, and at 9:30 p.m. every day of the week, there is an online meditation offered by the English Swamiji friends.

Dhyan Mikael: That is, every day of the week you have two opportunities to meditate together, at different times. And you can do it more often. You don't have to do it just once a week. The important thing is that you do it at least once a week. You can do it every day if you want.

Devasetu: And those are zoom meetings where people are not visible, but you hear the voices, the beginning, and it just gives this sense of community. Then it gives you the feeling that the others are with it too.

Dhyan Mikael: Yeah, it's an energetic thing, and you are then really connected. You have a direct connection to these other people, not through the internet connection, but through the heart, so to speak, or rather via the crown chakra, that works much better.

Devasetu: And the announcement, the links for that, are in the News Box of Here-Now TV. I also have to do some advertising...

Dhyan Mikael: Yes of course! Please do.

Devasetu: Yes, good. Do you have any other topic, or do you want to say anything else about the topics that we touched, that we went through? I have no idea. I can't think of anything right now. I'm completely blank, but if you can think of anything else, I'm in good spirits. As far as I am concerned, we can go on. But I'm completely blank, from me there's no question coming.

Devasetu: No, I think that feels round now.

Dhyan Mikael: Thank you Devasetu.

Devasetu: Thank you too.

Dhyan Mikael: Thank you everyone.